Group V ester versus Group IV PAO - head to head
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Amsoil was origanaly diester based just like NEO. I believe M1 was also diester based origanaly too? Diester rock for automotice use in my opion. POE rocks and PAO is not bad either. Anythiing else is just swamp water with purfume added!LOL
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Diester rock for automotice use in my opion.
Not good for seals.
Diester rock for automotice use in my opion.
Not good for seals.
Seriously though how much of the performance charcteristics of POE,Dieesters or even PAO are really needed for the daily driver? I just want my engine to stay clean and start great in -25°F winter conditions! I am not convinced of dino's ability to keep an engine sqeaky clean.
They are great for turbo engines.
Sooooo,,what's better in high mileage daily drivers,PAO or Esters
i have both in stash.
i have both in stash.
PAO oils will have esters in them.
Originally Posted By: Tempest
PAO oils will have esters in them.
Right, but i have some oil thats "ester" base(on the bottle)
so wasn't sure if one had more then the other,just a thought.
PAO oils will have esters in them.
Right, but i have some oil thats "ester" base(on the bottle)
so wasn't sure if one had more then the other,just a thought.
One might have a higher ester content but you don't need a super high ester content to wet the metal surfaces in an engine.
My understanding of this subject leads me to believe that a blending of POE, PAO, and AN basestocks will produce a superior synthetic lubricant that can be fine tuned for specific performance requirements. A blend of these synthetic basestocks results in a synergy that is not possible with a mono basestock product.
That's right BerndV. ^^
I'm surprised so few people have come to the defense of esters. It may be marketing, but I believe most of the points made in the original post are quite correct:
- The esters used in motor oils, particularly POEs (and proabably also RLI's vegetable esters), are heavily polar and I do believe this gives them a significant advantage in adhering to and protecting the metal, as well as the ability to clean the metal.
- These esters are particularly well suited to high temperature use. I believe it is true that all jet engines use ester-based lubricating oil for this reason. In fact Red Line states that their oils begin life as jet turbine base stocks, which they then blend and additize. I'm not sure any other company can make that claim in the auto oil world.
- Esters have good seal-swelling properties. PAOs, I believe, need to have seal swelling agents added.
- PAOs are not polar and I believe one reason that they need to be mixed with other-group oils is to give the finished oil some polar characteristics. It used to be that they were predominantly grp III/IV blends, but since the advent of grp II and III, many PAO synthetics are probably grp IV/III blends instead, which is cheaper.
By the way, grp II/III oils are excellent, and I don't believe there is any advantage for most people in using any grp IV/V oils. Also, I don't doubt that the best oil will be a blend of more than one base stock, in order to have the best overall characteristics. However, I do believe that POE base stocks as currently being used in motor oils are the highest-performance base stocks overall, and that the best oils, generally (there are of course many other variables) will use a large proportion of the right esters in their mix, as opposed to a small proportion of esters added to a lower-group base, and will thereby be reasonably characterized as "ester" oils.
That is my opinion. I'm currently using Red Line oil in order to "test" my belief in its superiority.
- The esters used in motor oils, particularly POEs (and proabably also RLI's vegetable esters), are heavily polar and I do believe this gives them a significant advantage in adhering to and protecting the metal, as well as the ability to clean the metal.
- These esters are particularly well suited to high temperature use. I believe it is true that all jet engines use ester-based lubricating oil for this reason. In fact Red Line states that their oils begin life as jet turbine base stocks, which they then blend and additize. I'm not sure any other company can make that claim in the auto oil world.
- Esters have good seal-swelling properties. PAOs, I believe, need to have seal swelling agents added.
- PAOs are not polar and I believe one reason that they need to be mixed with other-group oils is to give the finished oil some polar characteristics. It used to be that they were predominantly grp III/IV blends, but since the advent of grp II and III, many PAO synthetics are probably grp IV/III blends instead, which is cheaper.
By the way, grp II/III oils are excellent, and I don't believe there is any advantage for most people in using any grp IV/V oils. Also, I don't doubt that the best oil will be a blend of more than one base stock, in order to have the best overall characteristics. However, I do believe that POE base stocks as currently being used in motor oils are the highest-performance base stocks overall, and that the best oils, generally (there are of course many other variables) will use a large proportion of the right esters in their mix, as opposed to a small proportion of esters added to a lower-group base, and will thereby be reasonably characterized as "ester" oils.
That is my opinion. I'm currently using Red Line oil in order to "test" my belief in its superiority.
I have been using nothing but Redline products in my 2005 Sequoia starting at 5k and now have over 70k on the odometer. I have also been using Mobil 1 in my 1996 Camry starting at the first oil change. It now has over 140k on the odometer. I have found both to be superb products. However, I remain unconvinced that Redline is a superior formulation despite being twice the price. Exxon-Mobil is one of the largest producers of both PAO and Ester basestocks. If pure POE was superior in every way for automotive applications, I imagine that Exxon-Mobil would market such a product at a competitive price point.
I think that among other things, Mobil has put so much energy over so many years into convincing people that Mobil 1 is a super-premium oil, equal to the best you can get (and it may be in many cases), it would damage the brand greatly if they offered an "even-more-premium" oil at a higher price point. Also, I suspect they make huge profits on the Mobil 1 line, and to equal those profits on an ester line they would have to charge even more than Red Line and its ilk.
Just speculating, of course.
By the way, I too would be unconvinced that Red Line would give superior results in a Sequoia compared with M1 or even with a good conventional, at appropriate OCIs. If Red Line and other ester oils have a practical advantage, it is in high-stress use or engines that by design put more stress on the oils. Most Sequoia UOAs I have seen have been super-low-wear regardless of the oil used. In my car, I seem to be showing much better result with the Red Line so far.
Just speculating, of course.
By the way, I too would be unconvinced that Red Line would give superior results in a Sequoia compared with M1 or even with a good conventional, at appropriate OCIs. If Red Line and other ester oils have a practical advantage, it is in high-stress use or engines that by design put more stress on the oils. Most Sequoia UOAs I have seen have been super-low-wear regardless of the oil used. In my car, I seem to be showing much better result with the Red Line so far.
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Originally Posted By: glennc
I think that among other things, Mobil has put so much energy over so many years into convincing people that Mobil 1 is a super-premium oil, equal to the best you can get (and it may be in many cases), it would damage the brand greatly if they offered an "even-more-premium" oil at a higher price point. Also, I suspect they make huge profits on the Mobil 1 line, and to equal those profits on an ester line they would have to charge even more than Red Line and its ilk.
Just speculating, of course.
By the way, I too would be unconvinced that Red Line would give superior results in a Sequoia compared with M1 or even with a good conventional, at appropriate OCIs. If Red Line and other ester oils have a practical advantage, it is in high-stress use or engines that by design put more stress on the oils. Most Sequoia UOAs I have seen have been super-low-wear regardless of the oil used. In my car, I seem to be showing much better result with the Red Line so far.
Do we actually have ANY idea how much ester content M1 has compared to Redline or is this all just speculation?
I remember M1 advertising esters and their oil many, MANY years ago.....
I think that among other things, Mobil has put so much energy over so many years into convincing people that Mobil 1 is a super-premium oil, equal to the best you can get (and it may be in many cases), it would damage the brand greatly if they offered an "even-more-premium" oil at a higher price point. Also, I suspect they make huge profits on the Mobil 1 line, and to equal those profits on an ester line they would have to charge even more than Red Line and its ilk.
Just speculating, of course.
By the way, I too would be unconvinced that Red Line would give superior results in a Sequoia compared with M1 or even with a good conventional, at appropriate OCIs. If Red Line and other ester oils have a practical advantage, it is in high-stress use or engines that by design put more stress on the oils. Most Sequoia UOAs I have seen have been super-low-wear regardless of the oil used. In my car, I seem to be showing much better result with the Red Line so far.
Do we actually have ANY idea how much ester content M1 has compared to Redline or is this all just speculation?
I remember M1 advertising esters and their oil many, MANY years ago.....
Call it speculation, call it logic, whatever. I'd bet money on each of the following:
- M1 uses some esters in at least some of its formulations.
- M1 uses some grp III, where they once used esters, in at least some of its formulations. When M1 was new there was no such thing as grp III. Grp III works fine IMO, I don't have a problem with it.
- M1 does not use enough esters in any of its formulations to reasonably advertise them as ester-based oils.
- Most of the oils that claim to be ester oils, or ester-based oils, do use large amounts of esters in their formulations.
- Red Line and RLI are truly ester-based oils, with very high concentrations of esters.
I don't know about Motul or the other European oils that claim to be ester based. I have no reason to question them.
You won't get any company to verify any of the above with certainty.
- M1 uses some esters in at least some of its formulations.
- M1 uses some grp III, where they once used esters, in at least some of its formulations. When M1 was new there was no such thing as grp III. Grp III works fine IMO, I don't have a problem with it.
- M1 does not use enough esters in any of its formulations to reasonably advertise them as ester-based oils.
- Most of the oils that claim to be ester oils, or ester-based oils, do use large amounts of esters in their formulations.
- Red Line and RLI are truly ester-based oils, with very high concentrations of esters.
I don't know about Motul or the other European oils that claim to be ester based. I have no reason to question them.
You won't get any company to verify any of the above with certainty.
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Originally Posted By: glennc
- PAOs ... used to be that they were predominantly grp III/IV blends, but since the advent of grp II and III, many PAO synthetics are probably grp IV/III blends instead, which is cheaper.
That is a typo. I meant to say that they used to be grp IV/V blends and now may be grp IV/III blends (or in some cases, hard to tell, grp III/IV blends).
- PAOs ... used to be that they were predominantly grp III/IV blends, but since the advent of grp II and III, many PAO synthetics are probably grp IV/III blends instead, which is cheaper.
That is a typo. I meant to say that they used to be grp IV/V blends and now may be grp IV/III blends (or in some cases, hard to tell, grp III/IV blends).
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Perhaps Doug Hillary will chime in? He seems to have lots of "inside knowledge" about the M1 product line........
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Originally Posted By: glennc
I'm currently using Red Line oil in order to "test" my belief in its superiority.
Redline is the only manufacturer that claims 100% polyol ester basestocks. That being said, is it your opinion that Redline is the preeminent PCMO if price is no object? It would be nice to have MolaKule provide some input here.
I'm currently using Red Line oil in order to "test" my belief in its superiority.
Redline is the only manufacturer that claims 100% polyol ester basestocks. That being said, is it your opinion that Redline is the preeminent PCMO if price is no object? It would be nice to have MolaKule provide some input here.
Mobil 1 "Tri-Syn" was PAO, alkylated napthalenes and ester base stocks.
The PAO was the bulk of it, naphtalenes for added solubility and esters for polarity.
The PAO was the bulk of it, naphtalenes for added solubility and esters for polarity.
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