Why U.S. Freight Trains Are So Much Better Than Passenger Rail

[y_p_w]

As a passenger, not wanting to be treated like cattle, or worse, I'll take a train trip any day, when it's a reasonable alternative. Any time spent to travel to an airport outside of city limits, waiting through security theater, weather delays, and for the appointed departure, still counts toward the journey. And your bags, which travel free, will never be sent to Timbuktu, while you're on your way to Anchorage, because they'll never be more than a short walk away from you.

That's not necessarily the case with Amtrak. They have checked in baggage, and they generally just route the baggage whatever way is the most convenient for Amtrak, where it should be waiting at the destination. And it's decidedly old school where there's no barcode - just a tag attached with a destination. The major destinations might have preprinted tags, but station agents might also write down the destination code. The tags have a place to write down the preferred route, but I hear they often just figure out what route will get it there fastest. It's also possible to check in baggage up to 24 hours before scheduled departure, so often they'll just put it on a train.

 

[Lubener]

Since they are competing directly with trucks, hauling goods that readily could be shipped by truck.

Despite the name, Amtrak doesn't actually own the tracks.

They usually run on the same tracks as freight trains.

 

[mrnkc130]

Freight gets priority over passenger rail traffic in most of the USA. Intermodal, the trains that hail semi trailers get top priority over other freight types.

Everything you said is false, why would you make a claim about something you obviously know nothing about?

 

[brianl703]

Freight gets priority over passenger rail traffic in most of the USA. Intermodal, the trains that hail semi trailers get top priority over other freight types.

The Federal law is that Amtrak gets priority over freight.

Freight Delays and Your Amtrak Service

Delays can happen for a variety of reasons, but the leading cause of delay to Amtrak trains is “freight train interference.”

www.amtrak.com

 

[UncleDave]

Semis pay lots of taxes.

Yeah they typically do.

I understand rmays point, but my truck driving friends would argue they pay more than just about anyone to use the roads.

 

[mrnkc130]

Bearings go bad frequently. The problem was the protocol was not followed as the train should have stopped and the engineer walk the entire train on both sides. Atleast to car # 23.

Many bearing detectors are non reporting to the trains until a certain threshold is reached, they are monitored remotely by different employees and sometimes crews are instructed to inspect cars before a detector reports to the crew when a trend is noticed. From what ive read about this incident (and its plausible) was temp was trending up but not alarmingly and then the last detector they went over alarmed as temp had spiked and before they could stop train the bearing failed.
There is actually a huge network of detectors all over monitoring bearings and wheel temps (handbrakes left on / sticking brakes) shifted loads, dragging equipment etc. You cant stop every potential failure every time with millions of pieces of rolling stock, its just not possible. As a whole the RR industry is very focused on safety, almost cripplingly so operationally.

*and just to be pedantic, the engineer isn't going to walk the train, it would be the conductor or the brakeman if they have one.

 

[eljefino]

Yeah they typically do.

I understand rmays point, but my truck driving friends would argue they pay more than just about anyone to use the roads.

They probably do, but they don't pay enough to cover their damage.

Road damage correlates to the fourth power of axle weight, so a 17k lb axle does the damage of hundreds or thousands of 1.5k lb car axles.

If 18 wheelers truly were subsidizing the rest of us, the trucking industry would use numbers to make their case. Instead, they use emotion, aka "everybody knows."

 

[mrnkc130]

But they're just now beginning to offer rail workers a whole four paid sick days.

If you were to see their actual paid time off and benefits package you'd reconsider the sympathy.
Cadillac insurance, 100k+ compensation (in some places well over 200k) way better than SS retirement and you can retire at 60, the list goes on. All available to anyone with some work ethic right out of highschool with no experience required. There is a reason the RR has some of the lowest employee turnover of any industry and most staying with the same employer for 30 to 40+ years. They are paid a premium for their availability and the lifestyle required.

 

[supton]

I understand rmays point, but my truck driving friends would argue they pay more than just about anyone to use the roads.

But they should be… wear and tear on the roads goes by by like the 8th(?)* power of the weight. The heavier the truck, the more wear and tear. It’s an inconvient truth and all, but, those are the vehicles doing the most damage to the roads.

Now, the consumer is the one who pays for everything, all the time. How does the buck get passed back to the consumer? fuel taxes? tolls? income tax, which isn‘t as direct as a fuel tax? Right now it’s a mix of things to pay for the roads, and TBH, I think we could make an (easy) argument that it’s not being well done. [I say this as frost heave season is coming soon.]

[*Edit: I see eljefino posted a different number, and I’m going off memory of what he has posted over the years… I’ve got the memory of a steel colander, so I’ll defer to what he says. ]

 

[brianl703]

But they should be… wear and tear on the roads goes by by like the 8th(?)* power of the weight. The heavier the truck, the more wear and tear. It’s an inconvient truth and all, but, those are the vehicles doing the most damage to the roads.

I wish Virginia would get a clue about this and start posting weight limits on secondary roads like other states do.

 

[y_p_w]

They probably do, but they don't pay enough to cover their damage.

Road damage correlates to the fourth power of axle weight, so a 17k lb axle does the damage of hundreds or thousands of 1.5k lb car axles.

If 18 wheelers truly were subsidizing the rest of us, the trucking industry would use numbers to make their case. Instead, they use emotion, aka "everybody knows."

There’s a freeway (I-580 around Oakland) here where vehicles over 4.5 tons aren’t allowed on a segment. There are a few exceptions, but I believe even fuel deliveries to gas stations go through local streets. Then trucks are allowed (where they enter/exit at I-238), and the condition of the road just goes bad really fast.

Route 580 | Caltrans

State of California

dot.ca.gov

 

[UncleDave]

But they should be… wear and tear on the roads goes by by like the 8th(?)* power of the weight. The heavier the truck, the more wear and tear. It’s an inconvient truth and all, but, those are the vehicles doing the most damage to the roads.

Now, the consumer is the one who pays for everything, all the time. How does the buck get passed back to the consumer? fuel taxes? tolls? income tax, which isn‘t as direct as a fuel tax? Right now it’s a mix of things to pay for the roads, and TBH, I think we could make an (easy) argument that it’s not being well done. [I say this as frost heave season is coming soon.]

[*Edit: I see eljefino posted a different number, and I’m going off memory of what he has posted over the years… I’ve got the memory of a steel colander, so I’ll defer to what he says. ]

Ive read some of the same material and am following closely on memory leakage

Not living this as a trucker does, I can only recall the discussion going back to something (I'll get close but probably not right) and old test called AAHSO or something close that they claim is often misquoted.

The ATA claims that a properly built road is not at all damaged by weight but by weather and cite multiple examples of truck free areas that fall apart just as quick. Seems suspect, but Id imagine it's probably some measure of weight per square foot of contact surface.

 

[billt460]

The Federal law is that Amtrak gets priority over freight.

That's only to test the rails and bridges.

 

[supton]

The ATA claims that a properly built road is not at all damaged by weight but by weather and cite multiple examples of truck free areas that fall apart just as quick.

Would be interesting to review that. Well, maybe not, I’m guessing it’s probably on the dry side. . They may have a point, I can point to many roads around me with potholes and frostheaves, and it’s clearly from road prep and sometimes not keeping up repairs (even the best done roads will have maintenance needs).

Many roads have long histories, been around longer than the big trucks that now need to roll down them. Really hard to rip up a road and do it right. If it takes more than a day I sure wouldn’t want it done in front of my house!

I wonder if some of the road damage seen is just expected wear, and part of the problem is that the road surface isn’t be redone on the required basis. New layers put down and all.

 

[brianl703]

I wonder if some of the road damage seen is just expected wear, and part of the problem is that the road surface isn’t be redone on the required basis. New layers put down and all.

Some of the road damage I see looks like it's caused by a poor subgrade and/or poor drainage, because it's almost always on a 2-lane country road that has no improvements made to it other than getting paved. They took that dirt road and put pavement over it and called it good enough. If it's raining any significant amount, you'll hit puddles of standing water on these roads. There's a couple of right turn lanes I know of that are almost always under water anytime it's been raining.

I guess putting pavement over a dirt road with no other preparation is like painting over rotted wood, with the same results.

 

[bullwinkle]

Passenger service & the loss of the US Mail were major factors in a LOT of RR bankruptcies until all the big mergers happened. The government forced the NYC, Pennsylvania, & other big Class 1s to run unprofitable passenger trains until they bled dry. The survivors, like the Norfolk & Western (parent of NS) & the Chesapeake & Ohio (parent of CSX), all ran BIG $ freight operations, such as N&Ws hugely profitable coal hauling operations (mostly pre-1970s). Then, when the Feds decided to let Conrail go, CSX & NS were the only operators east of the Mississippi in position to scoop it up. Giant trains & BIG shipping $ resulted…

 

[bullwinkle]

And-I live in the central Mill Creek valley area of Cincinnati, with MAJOR CSX & NS (ex-CR/NYC/Big Four) lines inside of a mile from me, both RRs are WEARING OUT the lines & crossings with enormous, sometimes 300 car trains, as many as 25 a day on each line. Oftentimes the only break on the CSX is in the middle of the night when Amtrak comes through!

 

[mrnkc130]

And-I live in the central Mill Creek valley area of Cincinnati, with MAJOR CSX & NS (ex-CR/NYC/Big Four) lines inside of a mile from me, both RRs are WEARING OUT the lines & crossings with enormous, sometimes 300 car trains, as many as 25 a day on each line. Oftentimes the only break on the CSX is in the middle of the night when Amtrak comes through!

Volumes are not really up, its not more trains its longer trains so they aren't wearing anything out faster, ten 100 car trains are no different than one 1000 car train in that respect. (actually could argue the opposite since the locomotives are heaviest of anything)
There is other issues with the long trains, but as far as wearing out rails or crossings (not sure what you mean by that) I don't believe that is the case.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

Freight doesn't care if it's on a train that's parked for hours due to a crew change or some other reason.

Passengers might get a little irritated about that.

Yup, train travel has really gone downhill! You got to live like a bum!

 

[twouvakind]

Volumes are not really up, its not more trains its longer trains so they aren't wearing anything out faster, ten 100 car trains are no different than one 1000 car train in that respect. (actually could argue the opposite since the locomotives are heaviest of anything)
There is other issues with the long trains, but as far as wearing out rails or crossings (not sure what you mean by that) I don't believe that is the case.

With the Northeast Corridor, the assets are used around the clock. Be it passenger, commuter, freight, bad order moves and maintenance......there is always something moving.