Which WIX to use?

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE

WIX uses the 1st "B" statement in their filter data, always, the 1st ratio of 2/20 means 2u and 20u particles.


Like I said earlier ... NO WIX oil filter is 90.9% efficient at filtering 2 micron particles. How do explain that?

Also, were has WIX documented or shown the exact way they show Beta Ratio info? Can you quote from thier website, or have an email from their Tech Dept?

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
you cannot fix the efficiency to 50 and 90% and then try and compare filter abilities by varying the particle sizes.


Sure you can ... that's the other example in the Beta Chart.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE

WIX uses the 1st "B" statement in their filter data, always, the 1st ratio of 2/20 means 2u and 20u particles. you cannot fix the efficiency to 50 and 90% and then try and compare filter abilities by varying the particle sizes.


Like I said earlier ... NO WIX oil filter is 90.9% efficient at filtering 2 micron particles. How do explain that?

Also, were has WIX documented or shown the exact way they show Beta Ratio info? Can you quote from thier website, or have an email from their Tech Dept?


i explain that because it was just a "as example". i didnt say that was a actual filter #.

my understanding was that WIX reports # of trapped particles : # of particles that got by, then normalized so that the denominator = 1.

i will call WIX tomorrow to try and verify my claims.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
i will call WIX tomorrow to try and verify my claims.


Cool ... I'd like to know their answer too. It's too bad there isn't one standard way to show the Beta Ratio info format so people don't get confused! Please let us know what WIX Tech Dept says.

 

[Gary Allan]

Figure it this way.

What is constant in the Wix system of nomenclature?

2/20.

What is variable?

The varied amounts are the particle sizes. The constants are the efficiency

50% and 95%

The "nominal" notation at the bottom is the SINGLE PASS 50% rating. That's the common "nominal" view. The 2/20 figures are the MULTIPASS figures.

That's why you may have a bypass filter that may have lousy 2/20 numbers ..but outstanding "nominal numbers" since the multipass is done at a much higher flow rate, while the nominal is at the specified 1.75 gpm.

NOW the COMMON WAY that it's expressed EVERYWHERE ELSE

Beta15=2

HOWEVER, in a "table view" it can often be expressed as listing beta efficiency numbers (2/20/75/200/1000) and having the particle results listed across a number of filters.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE


as example, 2/20=20/40 means the following:

for 2u particles for every 20 trapped 1 got by.
for 20u particles for every 40 trapped 1 got by.
this is Beta. the efficiency is a calulation using Beta (as shown in some earlier posts).


Nope ... what it really means is:

2/20=20/40 means

Beta 2/20 = 50% efficient at trapping 20 microns and larger.
Beta 20/40 = 95% efficient at trapping 40 microns and larger.

See how I've colored the numbers ... those are the matching pairs (red to red, and blue to blue).

See that Beta info chart river_rat posted on page 2.


this doesnt make sense because then what you are saying is that for every filter WIX makes they changed the particle size for every Beta test??? no they did not, they use a constant particle size of 2u and 20u for every filter test. it is the ratio (aka Beta #'s after the "=") that changes for every filter.


No, I think they tell you the particle size where it is 50% (Beta 2) effiecent, and what particle size it is 95% effiecent (Beta 2).


then why would there be a chart of Beta. if it was always 50% and 95% then we wouldnt need a chart of Beta.

the #'s next to the Beta symbol are particle sizes!! and if you notice the #'s after the "=" are the Beta #'s on the chart !!


No they are not, at least for WIX. Take a look at the table. Look at the BETA numbers. Then look what they correspond to. They are a RATING.

Read the text below the table carefully. It clearly indicates that the # beside the BETA just corresponds to a efficiency percentage.

Say I had a filter with media that was 90% efficient at 10 microns and 99% efficient at 20 microns. Using the WIX nomenclature, one would express it thusly:

10/20 = 10/100

 

[Gary Allan]

It would be reversed with WIX.

10/100=10/20

Check out this WIX hydraulic filter

Part Number: 51496
UPC Number: 765809514966
Principal Application: Various Hydraulic Applications (3 micron)
All Applications
Style: Spin-On Hydraulic Filter
Service: Hydraulic
Type: Full Flow
Media: Wire/Glass
Height: 9.490
Outer Diameter Top: 3.810
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 1 3/8-12
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
Beta Ratio: 2/20/75=2/3/(not tested to absolute)-my notation
Burst Pressure-PSI: 1000
Max Flow Rate: 24-28 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating: 3

Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.762 2.484 0.278

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Read the text below the table carefully. It clearly indicates that the # beside the BETA just corresponds to a efficiency percentage.

Say I had a filter with media that was 90% efficient at 10 microns and 99% efficient at 20 microns. Using the WIX nomenclature, one would express it thusly:

10/20 = 10/100


Even per the example in the table, it all boils down to if the beta ratio numbers are listed first or second in order. There is nothing in the nomenclature/format to tell you eithter way, except possibly the use of subtext next to the B symbol ... and obviously the manufacturs don't use this nomenclature - I've never seen anyway.

Your example could be written:
10/20 = 10/100 or 10/100 = 10/20

Without knowing which number sequence is beta ratio and which is particle size, you could read it differently and it could be valid.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Read the text below the table carefully. It clearly indicates that the # beside the BETA just corresponds to a efficiency percentage.

Say I had a filter with media that was 90% efficient at 10 microns and 99% efficient at 20 microns. Using the WIX nomenclature, one would express it thusly:

10/20 = 10/100


Even per the example in the table, it all boils down to if the beta ratio numbers are listed first or second in order. There is nothing in the nomenclature/format to tell you eithter way, except possibly the use of subtext next to the B symbol ... and obviously the manufacturs don't use this nomenclature - I've never seen it listed that way.

Your example could be written:
10/20 = 10/100 or 10/100 = 10/20

Without knowing which number sequence is beta ratio and with is particle size, you could read it differently and it could be valid.


Very good point sir, as Gary already touched on in the post above.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Very good point sir, as Gary already touched on in the post above.


Yep ... if it was written in the format like WIX does on thier website:

Beta Ratio: 10/20 = 10/100

Then you would have to assume that the "10/20" (listed right after the words "Beta Ratio:") is the Beta Ratio efficiency numbers, and the 10/100 is the matching particle sizes.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


Read the text below the table carefully. It clearly indicates that the # beside the BETA just corresponds to a efficiency percentage.
Say I had a filter with media that was 90% efficient at 10 microns and 99% efficient at 20 microns. Using the WIX nomenclature, one would express it thusly:

10/20 = 10/100


Even per the example in the table, it all boils down to if the beta ratio numbers are listed first or second in order. There is nothing in the nomenclature/format to tell you eithter way, except possibly the use of subtext next to the B symbol ... and obviously the manufacturs don't use this nomenclature.

Your example could be written:
10/20 = 10/100 or 10/100 = 10/20

Without knowing which number sequence is beta ratio and with is particle size, you could read it differently and it could be valid.


in red - no, it clearly states in the 1st "B" statement that the #'s next to the "B", in subscript, are particle sizes. in the 2nd statement (2nd half of that text) it shows beta #'s in regular text next to the "B". this is common nomanclature.

and i will correct myself. i said (as example) 2/20=10/40 where 10 and 40 were the trapped : got-by ratio and that efficiency was 10/11 * 100, and 40/41 * 100. this is wrong.

10 and 40 are the beta #'s directly measured by B= # of particles trapped upstream / # of particles downstream. so "10" could be 100/10 or 1000/100 or 100000/10000, etc. and "40" could be 400/10 or 4000/100 or 400000/10000, etc.

so i read 2/20=18/40 as 2u=beta 18, and 20u=beta 40

now, for testing methodology i find it hard to believe they test each filter with a gamut/varying sized (and very odd sizes at that) particles. that would take a lot of filters to test through each sized particle until they find beta 2 (50%) and beta 20 (95%). or, they test with all these odd sizes all at once and then have to screen out the various sizes downstream to be able to calculate the # of each that got by the filter. just doesnt make sense from a testing methodology perspective. using two or three common sizes (also easily to obtain) like 2u 10u and 20u means you only need two or three filters per test and each test uses a single size, etc.

but, like i said, i will verify with WIX as to how they do their Beta testing.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... in the 2nd statement (2nd half of that text) it shows beta #'s in regular text next to the "B". this is common nomanclature.


See my post above your last one ... I'm bettin' (and have always claimed in this discussion) that's how WIX lists their beta ratio info.

Let us know what WIX says.

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... so i read 2/20=18/40 as 2u=beta 18, and 20u=beta 40


But what you said here doesn't match with what you said at the top of this post. If it matches the "2nd statement" in the table, then the "2/20" are the two beta ratio effiecency numbers 50%/95% respectively.

My head hurts ...

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa

Yep ... if it was written in the format like WIX does on thier website:

Beta Ratio: 10/20 = 10/100

Then you would have to assume that the "10/20" (listed right after the words "Beta Ratio:") is the Beta Ratio efficiency numbers, and the 10/100 is the matching particle sizes.

well, using the words "Beta Ratio" and using the symbol "B" for Beta can indeed be misleading at times. this is yet another # thats needs to be clearly defined. one common way is to use "B" symbol with subscript numbers where subscripts represent particle sizes. this falls in line with a "function" since Beta or "B" is really a function of particle size. i would even accept as a standard "B(x/y/z)= a/b/c" where x,y,z are particle sizes and a,b,c are the associated beta ratios. OR, the reporting vendor needs to clearly state their reporting method.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... in the 2nd statement (2nd half of that text) it shows beta #'s in regular text next to the "B". this is common nomanclature.


See my post above your last one ... I'm bettin' (and have always claimed in this discussion) that's how WIX lists their beta ratio info.

Let us know what WIX says.

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
... so i read 2/20=18/40 as 2u=beta 18, and 20u=beta 40


But what you said here doesn't match with what you said at the top of this post. If it matches the "2nd statement" in the table, then the "2/20" are the two beta ratio effiecency numbers 50%/95% respectively.

My head hurts ...

it matches neither statement under that table. i'm saying they report it as the 1st statement under that table, but they dont use "B" with subscript (my guess is their web guys are too lazy to properly format it).

from a WIX webpage:
"The finest catalog application information, part-number interchange database and technical support are available on our Web site, http://www.wixfilters.com, or they are just a toll-free telephone call away at 800-949-6698. Customer service and satisfaction is our primary goal."

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
i would even accept as a standard "B(x/y/z)= a/b/c" where x,y,z are particle sizes and a,b,c are the associated beta ratios.


I agree ... there should be some "industry standard" on the beta ratio nomenclature used.

Well, IMO showing it like below (which is how WIX shows it on their website):

Beta Ratio: 10/20 = 10/100

is basically the same as writing it like this:

B(10/20) = 10/100

That's why my wager is that WIX lists the beta ratio first, then the particle sizes on the RH side of the equals sign.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE

in red - no, it clearly states in the 1st "B" statement that the #'s next to the "B", in subscript, are particle sizes. in the 2nd statement (2nd half of that text) it shows beta #'s in regular text next to the "B". this is common nomanclature.


Here is where you and everybody else are disagreeing. The B just seems to denote the following text is a BETA reference. And what is cited in the table goes with that, as they list the SAME THING twice, just reversed. The role of the subscript is odd.... I wish they had used a clearer way of "defining" this nomenclature. In the text after the table, they just seem to be using it to indicate the differentiation between which side of the "=" is the particle size.


Quote:
and i will correct myself. i said (as example) 2/20=10/40 where 10 and 40 were the trapped : got-by ratio and that efficiency was 10/11 * 100, and 40/41 * 100. this is wrong.

10 and 40 are the beta #'s directly measured by B= # of particles trapped upstream / # of particles downstream. so "10" could be 100/10 or 1000/100 or 100000/10000, etc. and "40" could be 400/10 or 4000/100 or 400000/10000, etc.

so i read 2/20=18/40 as 2u=beta 18, and 20u=beta 40

now, for testing methodology i find it hard to believe they test each filter with a gamut/varying sized (and very odd sizes at that) particles. that would take a lot of filters to test through each sized particle until they find beta 2 (50%) and beta 20 (95%). or, they test with all these odd sizes all at once and then have to screen out the various sizes downstream to be able to calculate the # of each that got by the filter. just doesnt make sense from a testing methodology perspective. using two or three common sizes (also easily to obtain) like 2u 10u and 20u means you only need two or three filters per test and each test uses a single size, etc.

but, like i said, i will verify with WIX as to how they do their Beta testing.


How about using the numbers from the table, and see if you can use your theory here to yield the presented percentages as given in the text below the table?

If your math is correct, then you should be able to do so.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Here is where you and everybody else are disagreeing. The B just seems to denote the following text is a BETA reference. And what is cited in the table goes with that, as they list the SAME THING twice, just reversed. The role of the subscript is odd.... I wish they had used a clearer way of "defining" this nomenclature.


How I read the text in the Beta Ratio table is that if the x/y/z numbers are in sub-text next to the "B", then it's the particle sizes. If the x/y/z numbers are in full text next to the "B", then they are beta ratio percentage indicators. It's very confusing (obviously), and like I said earlier, no manufactures use the sub-text nomenclature ... that I've ever come across anyway.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
i would even accept as a standard "B(x/y/z)= a/b/c" where x,y,z are particle sizes and a,b,c are the associated beta ratios.


I agree ... there should be some "industry standard" on the beta ratio nomenclature used.

Well, IMO showing it like below (which is how WIX shows it on their website):

Beta Ratio: 10/20 = 10/100

is basically the same as writing it like this:

B(10/20) = 10/100

That's why my wager is that WIX lists the beta ratio first, then the particle sizes on the RH side of the equals sign.




well, if you are using my nomanclature of B(particle size)=#, then what you wrote "B(10/20)=10/100" would be 10u/20u = beta10/beta100, where beta10 and beta 100 can be read off of the beta table.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


How I read the text in the Beta Ratio table is that if the x/y/z numbers are in sub-text next to the "B", then it's the particle sizes. If the x/y/z numbers are in full text next to the "B", then they are beta ratio percentage indicators. It's very confusing (obviously), and like I said earlier, no manufactures use the sub-text nomenclature ... that I've ever come across anyway.

ah, now we agree on that table text. next we need to know how exactly WIX reports it.

 

[SuperBusa]

Originally Posted By: EMPIRE
well, if you are using my nomanclature of B(particle size)=#, then what you wrote "B(10/20)=10/100" would be 10u/20u = beta10/beta100, where beta10 and beta 100 can be read off of the beta table.


So what makes you think WIX showing the beta ratio info on their websit like ...

"Beta Ratio: 10/20=10/100"

... would mean the particle sizes are listed first?

I see no "sub-text" nomenclature (as the chart example eludes to), and as I mentioned earlier the reader can only logically assume it means the efficiency numbers are listed first like the 2nd example in the text of the beta ratio chart posted.

I think you’re still bass ackwards.

 

[EMPIRE]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa


So what makes you think WIX showing the beta ratio info on their websit like ...

"Beta Ratio: 10/20=10/100"

... would mean the particle sizes are listed first?

I see no "sub-text" nomenclature (as the chart example eludes to), and as I mentioned earlier the reader can only logically assume it means the efficiency numbers are listed first like the 2nd example in the text of the beta ratio chart posted.

I think you’re still bass ackwards.

actually, almost every passenger vehicle filter on their website lists beta as:
"Beta Ratio: 2/20=X/Y"

2/20 is common on every one of them. i believe they use two standard particle sizes vs. the gamut of X/Y sizes because X/Y varies quite a bit. imagine calling up your particle rep and saying "i need some 13u, 20u, 10u, 2u, 47u, 18u, and some 12u particles". 2u, 10u, and 20u seems normal. 13u, 18u, and 47u seems like some weird particles sizes to be testing with. besides that, how would you suggest testing 2-100u sized particles for any given filter?