What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Maybe his driving habits allow the OLM to call for a longer OCI. The Honda Trav worked on had a similar fate, probably with different driving conditions and the OLM triggering at a different time/mile reading. I have no reason in the world to believe the OP would be fudging numbers. Sometimes its hard to believe a car company, or system someone believes in failed. I think that's the case here. JMO

As a side note Adam was called a Troll early on, yet he produced pictures to back up his story. Why is it so hard for some people to believe Honda might have screwed up, and that an OLM is not perfect for everyone?

BTW Nick this isn't pointed at you, just some general observations from reading this thread.


OP's Records: For those of you wondering about my exact oil change intervals I am happy to provide you with the recap below. Regarding my driving habits, I do cruise along at about 75MPH in the Interstate, but my acceleration and deceleration are not hurried. I'm still on the original set of brakes. Please note that at the lower interval oil changes the Maintenance Minder had not yet dropped near 15%. I had these changes done early because I expected to do some travelling with the family and didn't want to run on old oil, despite the Dealers assurances. Otherwise notice how the intervals have been creeping down over the life of the engine. I'm not sure how that could be fudged. I have all the backup documentation and would be happy to post it should anyone require it. Thank You!

OC# / Date / Mileage / Interval / Days / Servicer / Note

0 / 7-Feb-2009 / 15 / New / New / Factory / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
1 / 24-Jun-2009 / 10,361 / 10,346 / 137 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
2 / 16-Nov-2009 / 20,539 / 10,178 / 145 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
3 / 21-Apr-2010 / 30,733 / 10,194 / 156 / Dealer 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
4 / 16-Jul-2010 / 37,495 / 6,762 / 86 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil Super (Conv.)
5 / 28-Oct-2010 / 47,200 / 9,705 / 104 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
6 / 31-Mar-2011 / 57,028 / 9,828 / 154 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil 1 (Synth.)
7 / 21-Jul-2011 / 66,348 / 9,320 / 112 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
8 / 23-Nov-2011 / 75,709 / 9,361 / 125 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
80,000 / Engine Ticking Began
9 / 12-Mar-2012 / 82,773 / 7,064 / 110 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
(Engine ticking want away for about 1000 miles)
10 / 25-May-2012 / 87,178 / 4,405 / 74 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
3-Jul-2012 / 89,895 / Dealer: "Sludge, engine shot"
17-Jul-2012 / 90,660 / Front Cam & PCV Replaced
Average Oil Change Interval: 8716.3

The only fudge here is on the inside of my front valve train.
smirk.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Tortuga
When I bought my Odyssey earlier this year my initial impression was that the OLM was a great new piece of technology. I'm clearly in the ignore it camp now. The OLM allows for extended intervals when long periods of freeway driving is done, and that is when the engine is in "ECO" mode the most, which is probably some of the most severe service for this engine.

I would not ignore it just yet..On your Odyssey how many miles to the..‘‘SERVICE DUE SOON’’ Maintenance Minder indicator? (under 15% on the OLM)
 
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Maybe his driving habits allow the OLM to call for a longer OCI. The Honda Trav worked on had a similar fate, probably with different driving conditions and the OLM triggering at a different time/mile reading. I have no reason in the world to believe the OP would be fudging numbers. Sometimes its hard to believe a car company, or system someone believes in failed. I think that's the case here. JMO

As a side note Adam was called a Troll early on, yet he produced pictures to back up his story. Why is it so hard for some people to believe Honda might have screwed up, and that an OLM is not perfect for everyone?

BTW Nick this isn't pointed at you, just some general observations from reading this thread.


OP's Records: For those of you wondering about my exact oil change intervals I am happy to provide you with the recap below. Regarding my driving habits, I do cruise along at about 75MPH in the Interstate, but my acceleration and deceleration are not hurried. I'm still on the original set of brakes. Please note that at the lower interval oil changes the Maintenance Minder had not yet dropped near 15%. I had these changes done early because I expected to do some travelling with the family and didn't want to run on old oil, despite the Dealers assurances. Otherwise notice how the intervals have been creeping down over the life of the engine. I'm not sure how that could be fudged. I have all the backup documentation and would be happy to post it should anyone require it. Thank You!

OC# / Date / Mileage / Interval / Days / Servicer / Note

0 / 7-Feb-2009 / 15 / New / New / Factory / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
1 / 24-Jun-2009 / 10,361 / 10,346 / 137 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
2 / 16-Nov-2009 / 20,539 / 10,178 / 145 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
3 / 21-Apr-2010 / 30,733 / 10,194 / 156 / Dealer 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
4 / 16-Jul-2010 / 37,495 / 6,762 / 86 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil Super (Conv.)
5 / 28-Oct-2010 / 47,200 / 9,705 / 104 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
6 / 31-Mar-2011 / 57,028 / 9,828 / 154 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil 1 (Synth.)
7 / 21-Jul-2011 / 66,348 / 9,320 / 112 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
8 / 23-Nov-2011 / 75,709 / 9,361 / 125 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
80,000 / Engine Ticking Began
9 / 12-Mar-2012 / 82,773 / 7,064 / 110 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
(Engine ticking want away for about 1000 miles)
10 / 25-May-2012 / 87,178 / 4,405 / 74 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
3-Jul-2012 / 89,895 / Dealer: "Sludge, engine shot"
17-Jul-2012 / 90,660 / Front Cam & PCV Replaced
Average Oil Change Interval: 8716.3

The only fudge here is on the inside of my front valve train.
smirk.gif


Adam,
Trying to understand the relationship between your oil change intervals above, the Maintenance Minder, and the OLM. Was the Maintenance Minder indicator flashing that prompted you for a change? Or were you going to 0 on the OLM? Pls explain thanks.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Maybe his driving habits allow the OLM to call for a longer OCI. The Honda Trav worked on had a similar fate, probably with different driving conditions and the OLM triggering at a different time/mile reading. I have no reason in the world to believe the OP would be fudging numbers. Sometimes its hard to believe a car company, or system someone believes in failed. I think that's the case here. JMO

As a side note Adam was called a Troll early on, yet he produced pictures to back up his story. Why is it so hard for some people to believe Honda might have screwed up, and that an OLM is not perfect for everyone?

BTW Nick this isn't pointed at you, just some general observations from reading this thread.


OP's Records: For those of you wondering about my exact oil change intervals I am happy to provide you with the recap below. Regarding my driving habits, I do cruise along at about 75MPH in the Interstate, but my acceleration and deceleration are not hurried. I'm still on the original set of brakes. Please note that at the lower interval oil changes the Maintenance Minder had not yet dropped near 15%. I had these changes done early because I expected to do some travelling with the family and didn't want to run on old oil, despite the Dealers assurances. Otherwise notice how the intervals have been creeping down over the life of the engine. I'm not sure how that could be fudged. I have all the backup documentation and would be happy to post it should anyone require it. Thank You!

OC# / Date / Mileage / Interval / Days / Servicer / Note

0 / 7-Feb-2009 / 15 / New / New / Factory / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
1 / 24-Jun-2009 / 10,361 / 10,346 / 137 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
2 / 16-Nov-2009 / 20,539 / 10,178 / 145 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
3 / 21-Apr-2010 / 30,733 / 10,194 / 156 / Dealer 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
4 / 16-Jul-2010 / 37,495 / 6,762 / 86 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil Super (Conv.)
5 / 28-Oct-2010 / 47,200 / 9,705 / 104 / Dealer / 5W-20 Mobil Bulk (Conv.)
6 / 31-Mar-2011 / 57,028 / 9,828 / 154 / Garage / 5W-20 Mobil 1 (Synth.)
7 / 21-Jul-2011 / 66,348 / 9,320 / 112 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
8 / 23-Nov-2011 / 75,709 / 9,361 / 125 / Jiffy Lube / 5W-20 Penzoil (Conv.)
80,000 / Engine Ticking Began
9 / 12-Mar-2012 / 82,773 / 7,064 / 110 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
(Engine ticking want away for about 1000 miles)
10 / 25-May-2012 / 87,178 / 4,405 / 74 / Jiffy Lube / 5W20 Penzoil Hi-Mileage (Conv.)
3-Jul-2012 / 89,895 / Dealer: "Sludge, engine shot"
17-Jul-2012 / 90,660 / Front Cam & PCV Replaced
Average Oil Change Interval: 8716.3

The only fudge here is on the inside of my front valve train.
smirk.gif


Adam,
Trying to understand the relationship between your oil change intervals above, the Maintenance Minder, and the OLM. Was the Maintenance Minder indicator flashing that prompted you for a change? Or were you going to 0 on the OLM? Pls explain thanks.


I check the fluid levels, tires, and lights regularly and have never seen the oil level low on the dipstick. It is always close to the top of the two little holes, either right above or right below the top hole. I usually keep an eye on the Maintenance Minder 'Oil Life %' and try to schedule when it hits 15%, which is when the yellow oil change light comes on. I don't recall ever seeing it at 10% or below. It used to be that it really bugged me when that little yellow light came on. Now seeing the green ECO light cone on bugs me even more.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

I know this is a long thread and it's hard to expect everybody to read every post. But the OP clearly explained very early on in this thread that this car saw mostly easy highway miles. This would (normally) be about the least sever service category you could get. Is it really such a stunning revelation that the OLM takes this into consideration?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH


I check the fluid levels, tires, and lights regularly and have never seen the oil level low on the dipstick. It is always close to the top of the two little holes, either right above or right below the top hole. I usually keep an eye on the Maintenance Minder 'Oil Life %' and try to schedule when it hits 15%, which is when the yellow oil change light comes on. I don't recall ever seeing it at 10% or below. It used to be that it really bugged me when that little yellow light came on. Now seeing the green ECO light cone on bugs me even more.


You did nothing wrong. The problem as I see it was you had faith in the OLM and Honda, both let you down in this case. JMO
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: cchase
I'm with the OP on this one.

Running by dealer recommendation and the cars maintenance minder system is about the best an uninformed owner can afford to do.

People saying "you should know better", on what was the OP supposed to base this knowledge?


I'm with the OP too. It's easy to say after the fact what the OP should have done. He put his faith in Honda quality and the OLM. Funny thing is even people coming here to learn can also be swayed by many of the heated discussions here about how great the OLM is. The OLM is fantastic, if you don't have a problem like Adam did. For people like me, and many others its something we ignore. I bet some people reading this thread who use the OLM, or are on the fence about it, are giving the OLM some second thoughts.


I have been getting used to the MM for two years since I bought my Pilot. First car with a true OLM system. Mine runs at about 5500 miles or so at 15% and about 7 months. Going to get a UOA at this next change just to see how it is really doing. (M1 0w-20). My driving is commutes less than 1 mile to work. Farthest thing we go to in town is maybe 8 miles. Pilot gets about a trip once a month of 100 to 400 miles on the highway. I am usually pretty strict on routine maintance and don't care for waiting for the next 15% to do the trans fluid or whatever may pop up on the MM, so I have decided to follow the maintenance schedule prior to the MM being implemented. Might also move to just changing the oil twice a year since we don't drive that much but will see what the UOA returns. My biggest concern are those half mile trips to work in the cold winter days. But if I trust my Honda dealer, they told me that wasn't hard on the engine. Yeah, right.

Best of luck to the OP. thanks for posting. Been very informative even though my Pilot doesnt have VCM. Has opened my eyes to shorter OCI on the newer Pilots which we want a newer one some day.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Good Question!

Ours has gone to 8,000 once, back when it was newer. Most of the time it's around 6,000 if I were to let it go to 15%.

I just changed it last night, it was at 5,500 and the MM was at 25%.

I still don't trust that thing and try to change it as close to 5,000 as I can.
 
Originally Posted By: K20FA5
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Good Question!

Ours has gone to 8,000 once, back when it was newer. Most of the time it's around 6,000 if I were to let it go to 15%.

I just changed it last night, it was at 5,500 and the MM was at 25%.

I still don't trust that thing and try to change it as close to 5,000 as I can.


how does it look under the cap?
 
OK, let's forget the MM issue for a moment. Instead, let's think Big Picture: In this instance a part wore out (a camshaft) at 87k miles, 27k miles beyond the vehicle warranty period. The cause is indeterminate. Adam's service history indicates that the last time his vehicle was serviced by a Honda dealer was in Oct 2010 at 47k miles. After that, he became a Jiffy Lube customer.

I get the part about the OP having gotten oil changes (not to be confused with HondaCare service) in accordance with the MM. Despite this, a part wore out. Based on this history, the fact that his engine warranty has long expired and the fact that he hasn't had his vehicle serviced by a Honda dealer in 36,000 miles, I think it's unreasonable for him to expect that either the selling dealer or the Honda Motor Company should reimburse him for a $750 engine repair, regardless of his OC history or his apparent reliance on the MM.

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.
 
Jiffy Lube's reputation is mediocre at best.

There are always urban legend stories of them using old oil and other shenanigans of that sort. Or having all the grades just pump 10w-30 or some out of spec oil that is cheapest (10w-30 fans will say that'll protect better!).

Perhaps I'm stereotyping and am a mechanic snob as the high school graduate lube technician working at Honda went through the same minimal training as at jiffy lube; but at least they might not be doping the oil.

Still, 2visits to jiffy lube then the tick begins raises one skeptical eyebrow.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: K20FA5
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
There's a question in this thread that was largely ignored. It was posted by Pablo and I pointed it out: Why was the OP's OLM going off at 10K or more when most of these vehicle OLM's tend to trip between 5000 and 8000 miles. I think there is some fudging going on in this thread IMHO...

Out here...


Good Question!

Ours has gone to 8,000 once, back when it was newer. Most of the time it's around 6,000 if I were to let it go to 15%.

I just changed it last night, it was at 5,500 and the MM was at 25%.

I still don't trust that thing and try to change it as close to 5,000 as I can.


My Honda regularly goes over 8-9k miles when its at 30% if I took it to 0 I'm guessing 12k miles. Its not a dummy light it takes many things into consideration, and since my driving is like the OP mostly long highway drives, his OLM look totally legit to me.
 
Originally Posted By: Hounds
OK, let's forget the MM issue for a moment. Instead, let's think Big Picture: In this instance a part wore out (a camshaft) at 87k miles, 27k miles beyond the vehicle warranty period. The cause is indeterminate. Adam's service history indicates that the last time his vehicle was serviced by a Honda dealer was in Oct 2010 at 47k miles. After that, he became a Jiffy Lube customer.

I get the part about the OP having gotten oil changes (not to be confused with HondaCare service) in accordance with the MM. Despite this, a part wore out. Based on this history, the fact that his engine warranty has long expired and the fact that he hasn't had his vehicle serviced by a Honda dealer in 36,000 miles, I think it's unreasonable for him to expect that either the selling dealer or the Honda Motor Company should reimburse him for a $750 engine repair, regardless of his OC history or his apparent reliance on the MM.

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.



I agree he was so far out of warranty, theres zero reason Honda should get involved, thats not to say his problem isn't mechanical. Lemons come off the assemble line from time to time. Although this thread has had me looking under the cap several times (spotless).
 
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Jiffy Lube's reputation is mediocre at best.


Back in the days of my youth I worked pumping grease in a very low end establishment when a Jiffy Lube opened in the area. Quite a few of our regular customers went for a single oil change because of a "good deal" with coupon. It didn't take long for use to see the outfit had a practice of changing the oil only (no filter) and about half the time severely overtightening the drain plug. Eventually an Orthodox rabbi used the coupon, then returned to us for his next service. It took him about three weeks to shut the place down. That was a bad Jiffy Lube.

There are now two Jiffy Lubes that some of my regular customers (a few with long commutes) go to. From what I've seen, it looks like they do change the filter and usually put the drain plug in with something close to reasonable torque.

Personal experience tells me that there are at least some Jiffy Lube locations where it's safe to assume the absolute minimum will be done and not just show up on paper. It is entirely possible that the Jiffy Lube in question didn't cause the problem. A hidden scratch mark on a filter should be enough to find out if they replace them. If they don't, well, maybe it's time to see if there's a good rabbi in the neighborhood?

So to those who have been watching UOA results much closer than I have here's a question: How do Pennzoil and Mobil Super conventional oil UOAs compare as far as insolubles go in high temperature applications?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Jiffy Lube's reputation is mediocre at best.

There are always urban legend stories of them using old oil and other shenanigans of that sort. Or having all the grades just pump 10w-30 or some out of spec oil that is cheapest (10w-30 fans will say that'll protect better!).

Perhaps I'm stereotyping and am a mechanic snob as the high school graduate lube technician working at Honda went through the same minimal training as at jiffy lube; but at least they might not be doping the oil.

Still, 2visits to jiffy lube then the tick begins raises one skeptical eyebrow.

Have you ever used jiffy Lube? Or are you passing on internet space junk? I have a good one down the street. Stellar reputation. Have used them off and on for over 20 years. Pennzoil.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Jiffy Lube's reputation is mediocre at best.

There are always urban legend stories of them using old oil and other shenanigans of that sort. Or having all the grades just pump 10w-30 or some out of spec oil that is cheapest (10w-30 fans will say that'll protect better!).

Perhaps I'm stereotyping and am a mechanic snob as the high school graduate lube technician working at Honda went through the same minimal training as at jiffy lube; but at least they might not be doping the oil.

Still, 2visits to jiffy lube then the tick begins raises one skeptical eyebrow.

Have you ever used jiffy Lube? Or are you passing on internet space junk? I have a good one down the street. Stellar reputation. Have used them off and on for over 20 years. Pennzoil.


I have, and they tried to say I needed to pay extra $10 surcharge because my "toyota" avalon was a special kind of car.
Didn't know toyotas were "rare".
As well as suggesting to my mom that she needed a new $35 engine air filter when I changed it 5k ago.

I did give my own caveat that i was stereotyping, and does not apply to your by the book awesome jiffy lube.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Hounds
OK, let's forget the MM issue for a moment. Instead, let's think Big Picture: In this instance a part wore out (a camshaft) at 87k miles, 27k miles beyond the vehicle warranty period. The cause is indeterminate. Adam's service history indicates that the last time his vehicle was serviced by a Honda dealer was in Oct 2010 at 47k miles. After that, he became a Jiffy Lube customer.

I get the part about the OP having gotten oil changes (not to be confused with HondaCare service) in accordance with the MM. Despite this, a part wore out. Based on this history, the fact that his engine warranty has long expired and the fact that he hasn't had his vehicle serviced by a Honda dealer in 36,000 miles, I think it's unreasonable for him to expect that either the selling dealer or the Honda Motor Company should reimburse him for a $750 engine repair, regardless of his OC history or his apparent reliance on the MM.

If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.


Based on the fact that varnishing and sludge is on the same front valve train as the failed cam, I don't agree that we can call the failure of the cam indeterminate. It is quite obvious from the pictures of the pollution of the front valve train that whatever defect caused this had been happening for a long time, perhaps since the vehicle was new, and certainly when it was well withing its warranty period. Who did the service has much less relevance then the fact that the service was done, done correctly, and done when it was called for. IMHO
 
Last edited:
Sludge and varnish alone do not wear out parts. It has to restrict oil supply or block oil from returning to the pan to cause wear.
 
Originally Posted By: Hounds
If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.

Ok, I'm speculating..Unless Honda's maintenance checks include valve cover removal to inspect cam lobes I doubt dealer oil changes would have changed anything.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Originally Posted By: Hounds
If we are going to speculate, let's speculate as to whether a Honda mechanic would have seen the potential for the issues Adam's now dealing with had he gotten his "A" and "B" service and maintenance checks done by a Honda dealership.

Ok, I'm speculating..Unless Honda's maintenance checks include valve cover removal to inspect cam lobes I doubt dealer oil changes would have changed anything.


The maintenance schedule on mitchell shows for A and B service to adjust only if noisy. Service 04 says to inspect valve clearance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

scotty.honda.dog
2016 Honda Civic with 375,000 miles, 1.5T engine - Reddit link
2
Replies
30
Views
4K
4WD
D
Does the oil brand actually matter? Is this all just hyperbole?
2 3
Replies
49
Views
8K
wareze
B
Preventing sludge/varnish with Honda J35A7 VCM enabled engines.
2 3
Replies
49
Views
6K
dumkid
P
HPL EC usage
2 3
Replies
46
Views
2K
thetricky
P
Fresh Oil = Quiet
3 4 5
Replies
96
Views
6K
BLND1
Back
Top