What is my Honda Pilot engine's REAL problem?

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The OLM isnt performing a UOA, so..the OLM stats were wrong. I think you will recover, no harm, no foul, no repairs..

The 2 Toyotas in my signature recovered nicely from your situation. Both had bad sludge, ticked, ran terrible when I bought them. Both run well today after the sludge and the Variable Valve Timing (in your case i-VTEC) system was cleaned out. Until the i-VTEC system is unplugged dont bother with mechanical fixes for the ticking.

What I did: 2X runs of Mobil 1 high mileage with the additive Kreen towards the end of both. Pennzoil Ultra works well too.

If you don't change your own oil, just get the Kreen and put it in the last 1k of whatever you are using. 3k for the first OC, 5-6k max from here on out. You need to purchase at the Kano labs website online. $20. Another option is MMO which is everywhere. Not as effective, but can get you started today. All you need is room to top off.
 
If you have all your maintenance record, as you claim, then I would pursue a resolution with Honda. I would not let another mechanic touch the car because Honda might have a problem with it.
If every maintenance item was performed per maintenance minder then Honda should be helping you out by sharing the cost. See where this dealer gets you. If there is no resolution write a letter to Honda US and Japan clearly stating the situation. Also be very clear that if there is no resolution from them, this will be your last Honda product and that you will look at Hyundai instead (Japanese car manufacturers are really scared of them). This should raise some eyebrows.
 
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
The OLM isnt performing a UOA, so..the OLM stats were wrong.


Exactly and it appears following it might not be the best thing to follow in all situations. Another reason why I don't have too much faith in the OLM. Ooops hot topic I better take cover.
27.gif
LOL
 
I hate this for you. I would really love to know what R&D went into the MM intervals on the Honda V-6 engines, because it sure does seem that the oil just doesn't stand-up to long intervals in the V-6s...especially the VCM ones. The non-VCM ones don't seem to be as bad, but I still wouldn't run more than 5k miles in them on most any oil. I stay with 5k mile intervals on synthetic with ours.

I would certainly try going to Honda directly first, before I tried any "home remedies". If you have all service records with service intervals correlating with what the MM would normally call for, then you have a decent shot of at least having this looked at by someone in the corporate office. Your powertrain is outside of the warranty, but sludge like that doesn't form overnight; this has been a long time in the making.

If Honda refuses to do anything about it, then I would try some cleasning oil as recommended in previous posts. You really have nothing to lose, but I'd only do that if Honda washes its hands of it first.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I hate this for you. I would really love to know what R&D went into the MM intervals on the Honda V-6 engines, because it sure does seem that the oil just doesn't stand-up to long intervals in the V-6s...especially the VCM ones. The non-VCM ones don't seem to be as bad, but I still wouldn't run more than 5k miles in them on most any oil. I stay with 5k mile intervals on synthetic with ours.

I would certainly try going to Honda directly first, before I tried any "home remedies". If you have all service records with service intervals correlating with what the MM would normally call for, then you have a decent shot of at least having this looked at by someone in the corporate office. Your powertrain is outside of the warranty, but sludge like that doesn't form overnight; this has been a long time in the making.

If Honda refuses to do anything about it, then I would try some cleasning oil as recommended in previous posts. You really have nothing to lose, but I'd only do that if Honda washes its hands of it first.


+1 I'd raise [censored] with Honda and see where that gets you. If they don't resolve it to your satisfaction then I'd try cleaning up myself.
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles. First let me apologize for all the guys arguing in your thread. Wastes space and doesn't help you one bit.

Yes this engine is a sludge engine. Yours is the worse of the two, but even the standard J35 is very hard on oil. I say ALWAYS run synthetic in the Honda 3.5 J35, even a good group III. Most people don't listen to me when I recommend synthetic with the OLM MM, because I'm just the Amsoil "salesman". They don't even know how many of these engines I have seen filthy running conventional oil. Mostly Odyssey (by the number out there), but some Pilots too.

2009? The warranty is gone? Honda knows - go with vigor and good luck.

It's a bit odd that your cams are toast in 10K from the start of hearing the noise. I would still try some low cost oil and two Amsoil Flush treatments, followed by Kreen or MMO and short oci's. Sure it will cost a little, but less than a top end/whole engine job.

I do get tired of the whole "conventional oil is up to the task and there is no difference". I've done 2X-3X MM oil changes with synthetic in our 2006 Ody. Engine is clean and very quiet. Nothing special just Amsoil whatever XW-20 I have sitting around.

Right now? - odds and ends!
2 QTs ASM
1 QT RD-20
1 QT ASL
1 QT XLM
 
Quote:
I don't want to get into any long/short OCI debates, but honestly, with that duty and using good quality conventionals like MC5k and PYB, I think there's something fishy going on here. Maybe some place skipping the oil changes and just resetting the OLM? Or maybe the dealer screwed something up when they were working on it and made up some B-S story to cover themselves?



When i tore into one of these engines that was really bad that had 7500 Mi synthetic OCI that's what a lot of people said also.

It cant, it shouldn't, someone is lying, someone got ripped off, on and on. Fact is it did and now more and more of them are showing up.

Fact is one of these engines i did was 80k ago is at the same mileage it was at when it had the problem.
This time its running on oil that is spec'd for this engine (or close to it) in some other parts of the world and its staying spotless with 5K OCI.
Quote:
Legend 3.5i VTEC V6
1. Wahl Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
2. Wahl Mobil 1 Fuel Economy 0W-30


wahl = choice/option

It is spec'd for 5w30 and Mobil recommends ESP 5w30 not just the 5w30 which is also available.
ESP is a thick 30 (HTHS 3.58), i was getting it at Pep Boys but they stopped carrying it, the closest thing i could find which is on every shelf is 0w40 (HTHS 3.8.
It does get Mobil 1 0w30 in winter.

Clean? Yes perfectly
Cold start issues? None
Quiet? Very
Reduced fuel economy? No its within statistical noise.
Consumption? Zero
Eco mode function? Perfect, no issues.
PCV? Staying clean

Before the thin oil brigade gets their knickers in a knot and starts with go with what the engineers designed the engine for.
The engineers obviously dropped the ball on this one or they didn't see it coming.
In any case what they recommended for the US market didn't work out to well did it?

Honda tried to blanket cover most of its engines with 5w20 and long OCI this is one that should never have been included in that list.
 
I just skimmed the entire thread (my first post was made without reading most of it). I keyed-in on the part where they said the cams were too worn to adjust. If I were the owner, I'd be very curious about this. I'm certainly not saying that it's not true, but it seems odd to me. Every cam follower has a roller tip to it, so wear SHOULD be very minimal. If the cams originally did indeed have issues (like a batch were too soft as reported earlier), that would be unfortunate, but isn't the end of the world; camshafts can be replaced. Of course, if it's all on your dime, that'd be hard to stomach. Based on owner reports of how Honda handled past transmission issues, I'd be at least cautiously optimistic that they would give you some goodwill consideration here (especially since it sounds like you have a long record of dealership oil changes).

You mentioned before that you were going to get pictures. Do you have any pictures of the cylinder head through the cylinder head cover? That obviously doesn't say everything about the internal condition of the engine, but it would show us something.
 
honda's are all perfect, and one single failing engine is just impossible, this entire post and thread is just a fabrication. nothing else to see here.
 
Originally Posted By: Adam_in_NH
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Conventional oil doesn't go 9,000 miles. Sorry.

Car ownership requires some basic knowledge - like tire pressure, what oil to use, ect. You should have checked the owners' manual for the correct oil if you were not sure. Otherwise, you should have changed at a reasonable interval.



I did check the owner's manual. I tells owners to follow the mileage minder. I always used the correct oil which is 5W-20. The manual says I can use a synthetic but the dealer did not give me that option. I expressed my concerns about the excessively long OCIs but he insisted that was normal.


Hi Adam. It sounds like you followed the owner's manual to a "T", so as far as I'm concerned Honda should be holding the bag on this one. Here is a short story about my only experience with the 3.5L V6.

My wife and I owned a 2008 Accord with the 3.5L VCM V-6 engine. We purchased it about a year and a half ago from a local dealer. Retired couple owned it previously, dealer serviced, lots of highway trips for winter vacations...seemed like a great pre-owned car. Service manager told me the same thing, change the oil when the computer tells you to. After a few months I discovered that the car consumed about 1 quart of oil every 1500 miles - enough to be annoying, but not enough to qualify for warranty work. I shrugged it off and just added oil as necessary...until the engine fouled a spark plug from oil consumption in that cylinder. Honda replaced the plugs under warranty, and said we were good to go. In preparation of changing the oil I did some research on the 3.5L and oil consumption. I was wondering if a thicker oil would help, but instead I found the thread on this site with the Odessey engine full of varnish. I pulled a valve cover off our engine and was horrified at the amount of dark brown varnish, in a few spots it was heavy enough that I considered it sludge. I cleaned what I could, and put everything back together.

Following the advice of a member on this site, I added a pint of "Kreen" to the oil and drove the car for two weeks or so before changing the oil. I was horrified at the amount of [censored] in the oil filter, but at least things looked better through the oil fill hole. I refilled the oil with Rotella 10w30 and drove the car like I stole it for the next month or so. When the oil turned black as coal after about 6 weeks, I changed it again with more 10w30. That time the oil stayed clean for months, and wasn't consumed as quickly.

I intended to switch back to 5w20 and go to a 5k OCI before this winter, but last month we ended up swapping the Honda for a 2010 Chevy Tahoe. When we switched our son to a full-size carseat and started hauling the stroller around, the Accord just didn't have the room we wanted. After all the issues we had with it my wife crossed Honda off her list for good...which says a lot considering it was her third Accord.

My short story got kind of long winded...good luck with getting your Pilot repaired.
 
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I have meticulously maintained my sister's little toyota yaris, and hers has alot of visible varnish. I use brand name conventional every 3-4 months, around 5,000kms.
Hers has 90,000kms?

I often wonder if toyota and honda engines run very hot by design, because they run on the leaner side/better MPG's.
 
Originally Posted By: boosted
Originally Posted By: The Critic
You guys really need to stop arguing about the validity of the 3k oil change interval. That was not the purpose of the OP's thread and adds no value to it whatsoever. Let's get back on topic.
sorry, and I don't believe you should always go 3k. Do a uoa and see what works for "you're" engine. But shorter oci's would of helped the op.
It's your, not you're. And it's would have, not would of.

You're welcome.
 
Originally Posted By: nicholas
I often wonder if toyota and honda engines run very hot by design, because they run on the leaner side/better MPG's.


The problem with the Honda V-6 engines seems to be worsened with the VCM - Variable Cylinder Management. Our MDX has the same J35 V-6 engine, minus the VCM, and has had 5,000 mile oil changes for all of its life and it's spotless under the cylinder head cover. There have been pictures posted here of older Honda J-series V-6 engines (like J30s in 2007 and prior Accords) showing very clean internals.

I think VCM is a huge contributor to this problem. I think the engine itself may be hard on oil, but nothing that 5,000 mile OCIs on conventional oil couldn't handle...until the VCM comes into the picture. I'm a bit disappointed that ALL Honda V-6 engines now come with VCM as standard. You used to be able to buy an Odyssey LX or EX with a standard V-6, and only the EX-L or Touring came with the VCM version. Now all trims come with the VCM engine. The only exception that I know of is the Honda Ridgeline. It soldiers on with the standard non-VCM engine.

General Motors was smart to reduce the OCI on its 3.6L V-6 engines to 5,000 miles maximum. It found that the engines were too hard on the oil to run longer. I think Honda needs to do the same. I'm not sure what engineering data they have that still supports 10k mile OCIs being appropriate in the VCM engines. Too many people are having the same problems with these.
 
I tried Kreen, Amsoil flush, MMO, etc and it did NOT help the knock... The problem is a poorly designed engine block...
 
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Originally Posted By: tbm3fan
I guess I will still continue to hate Hondas. I once had a 1980 Honda wagon as a new car. This is back in the days when I changed the oil every 3,000 miles. At 104,000 it was having power problems. Turns out two lobes on the camshaft were very worn. I was very ticked off and vowed never to buy another Honda.

On the other hand an Acura might be ok. A friend, at an independent auto parts place, has this car owner bring his car in when it needs work that he does on the side. Saw a Acura brought in that had 145,000 miles and was never serviced at all. All original everything and it ran to that mileage coolant, plugs, oil, filter, etc for 7 years.


I'm sorry, but I just HAD to comment on this post.

Basing your opinion on a car maker from one experience 30+ years ago is so stupid, it's not even funny.

Oils and engines are nothing like they were back then. 104k out of a 1980 daily-driven Honda, while not stellar, isn't that bad by the standards of the day.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Sorry to hear about your troubles. First let me apologize for all the guys arguing in your thread. Wastes space and doesn't help you one bit.

Yes this engine is a sludge engine. Yours is the worse of the two, but even the standard J35 is very hard on oil. I say ALWAYS run synthetic in the Honda 3.5 J35, even a good group III. Most people don't listen to me when I recommend synthetic with the OLM MM, because I'm just the Amsoil "salesman". They don't even know how many of these engines I have seen filthy running conventional oil. Mostly Odyssey (by the number out there), but some Pilots too.

2009? The warranty is gone? Honda knows - go with vigor and good luck.

It's a bit odd that your cams are toast in 10K from the start of hearing the noise. I would still try some low cost oil and two Amsoil Flush treatments, followed by Kreen or MMO and short oci's. Sure it will cost a little, but less than a top end/whole engine job.

I do get tired of the whole "conventional oil is up to the task and there is no difference". I've done 2X-3X MM oil changes with synthetic in our 2006 Ody. Engine is clean and very quiet. Nothing special just Amsoil whatever XW-20 I have sitting around.

Right now? - odds and ends!
2 QTs ASM
1 QT RD-20
1 QT ASL
1 QT XLM


I ran my ex-wife's Saturn VUE (which uses the Honda J35) on nothing but Motorcraft semi-syn 5W-20 from the day I bought it. At 100K miles it's clean as a whistle inside based on what I saw when I changed a leaky valve cover gasket. I followed the OLM which normally indicated an oil change between 6000 and 7000 miles and used nothing but bog standard Wix oil filters.

I loved that engine.

Just to play devil's advocate, it wouldn't be the first time a dealer tried to drum up business at an owner's expense. Before I authorized that kind of work, I'd have tried an oil change interval with a pint of MMO. The 3.5L does call for valve adjustment at 100k-ish miles.

Best,
 
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This is an unfortunate incident.

Exactly what oil was recommended for this engine and what does the manual say about intervals? The recommended oil is what the OLM is calibrated for, whether that's a conventional or a synthetic. If an OLM was calibrated for a synthetic, and you ran a conventional, that would be a recipe for problems. Ultimately, whatever the manual recommends is going to be what Honda will be required to live up to, not some vague recommendation from a dealer that likely can't be proven.

I have never heard of an OLM "failing" perse because it's built into the PCM. I suppose anything is possible but??? I don't know exactly how Honda's works, but most are just algorithms based on certain inputs programmed onto a chart in the PCM. There are no "sensors" in most OLMs that monitor actual oil condition. Could yours have been accidentally reset somehow partway thru the interval? Was the battery replaced during that period, the van jump started or some electrical work done?

In theory a conventional like the Mobil 5000 could run a 9K + OCI but conditions would have to be just perfect. Having live next door to NH in VT, I doubt those perfect conditions were met.

As Gabe mentioned above, a quick look in the owner's manual might have prevented this incident. It can be a hard lesson to learn, but dealer personnel can't be regarded as the end-all authority. Obviously, they should be... but reality has sharp teeth. The failsafe is an owner who knows enough to have a "bovine scatology" detector sensitive enough to set off some alarms. That requires a little self education.
 
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