let me get this correct, synthetics don't reduce wear and don't increase fuel milage measurabley? i know lots of harley people that religously are changing the syn 3 every 2500 in the tranny/primary and motor. would they just as well be served using the dino products using this change interval? i am presently using the red cap mobil 15-50 in the motor and shared tranny primary in a 1200 xlh. do you really think i would just as well be using castrol 20-50 gtx oil and a 75-90 petro gear oil for these changes? i believe thats what the harley sport~trans gear oil equates to. i, myself, beleive, that if a synthetic oil reduces friction, it also will reduce wear,heat, and increase milage and performance, especialy in an air cooled motor. i am just going by what i have read on some of the car posts i have read saying that synthetics are only "worth it" and such if you are doing extended drains, starting in sub-zero weather...not exactly motorcycle riding time...or tropical heat. i guess the peace of mind factor play a big role here. comments?
wasted moola?
- Thread starter penzdude
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What's the extra yearly cost in using synthetics in this application? Probably pretty negligible, so I figure why not? I wouldn't argue at all with someone who used dino oil though.
If you're changing the oil that often, I don't see a reason to use synthetics. The advantage of using synthetics is that they breakdown over a longer period of time than regular dino oil. If they're changing the oil that often, I don't see the benefits... just wasted money.
Much of this debate needs to be looked at from many different perspectives, i.e. riding style, mileage, climate, etc. Personally, I would not run the conventional HD oil in the engine for 5,000 miles like they suggest. That's a little too long for my comfort level . On the other hand, when the Motor Company introduced SYN3, they never adjusted the drain intervals to take advantage of one of synthetics' key benefits.
At $8.25+ a quart, this is pure marketing in action here, IMHO.
For those that dump their SYN3 at 2500 miles, I suspect that...
1. They've been buffaloed by their "stealer". OR
2. They drag race every weekend. OR
3. They really want their bikes to last forever.
If these folks fall under #3, they should be doing used oil analysis. UOA's would provide me with more piece of mind than throwing good money after bad on overservicing. Riders that don't service their own bikes may not even know such a thing exists. Sadly, many riders will have needlessly been fleeced of their hard-earned dollars with the dealer laughing as they ride off.
Many folks that ride Harleys (or any other brand) may not necessarily have the technical background to filter out the hype over this oil issue. What really angers me is the amount of misinformation and complete BS being dispensed by some dealers. This is most unfortunate because the dealer is often the only place some folks rely on for accurate information about their motorcycle.
-end of rant.
ride safe...
veepster
At $8.25+ a quart, this is pure marketing in action here, IMHO.
For those that dump their SYN3 at 2500 miles, I suspect that...
1. They've been buffaloed by their "stealer". OR
2. They drag race every weekend. OR
3. They really want their bikes to last forever.
If these folks fall under #3, they should be doing used oil analysis. UOA's would provide me with more piece of mind than throwing good money after bad on overservicing. Riders that don't service their own bikes may not even know such a thing exists. Sadly, many riders will have needlessly been fleeced of their hard-earned dollars with the dealer laughing as they ride off.
Many folks that ride Harleys (or any other brand) may not necessarily have the technical background to filter out the hype over this oil issue. What really angers me is the amount of misinformation and complete BS being dispensed by some dealers. This is most unfortunate because the dealer is often the only place some folks rely on for accurate information about their motorcycle.
-end of rant.
ride safe...
veepster
Hi penzdude,
Yes sir you are correct about synthetics, but they do reduce wear and do increase mileage ; however the results may not be immediately noticeable, especially mileage. The folks you know with the SYN3...waaay overkill on the changes, IMHO. I'd be curious to know why they're doing this.
On the matter of the Castrol, the only reason I can think of not to use it would be warranty. On the exceptionally rare chance that you have a lubrication related failure and HD has the oil tested, it could come back to haunt you. If you change to a petro 75w-90 in the primary, you might not have as good shift quality as with the M1.
Synthetics provide among other things peace of mind to be able to run extended drains without worry.
a little windy but I hope this helps.
ride safe...
veepster
thanks for the replys guys. veepster, these guys were changing the harley dino at 2500 and since harley doesn't reccomend extending the syn-3 drains over the dino, they were doing the short drains with the syn as well. i am doing the mobil red cap 15-50 in the motor and shared primary and tranny. no problems, but i think i may try the amsoil v-twin 20-50 in the trans/primary next time. i guess peace of mind is in short supply in life as it is, if we can have it by spending a little more on oil for our pride and joys, it seems like money well spent!
Using synthetic oil in a motorcycle is like drinking Champagne with your hot dog.
I use the dino oils and the motor will last as long as it is gonna last.
People use the syn stuff for the same reason they buy Slick 50 -- it makes them feel good, thats all.
I use the dino oils and the motor will last as long as it is gonna last.
People use the syn stuff for the same reason they buy Slick 50 -- it makes them feel good, thats all.
I have seen long term fleet testing of dino versus synthetic where the wear reduction with the synthetic was significant. Where do you get your information that there is no difference?
So what's wrong with ordering champagne with your hot dog?
If you want to run synth in place of dino, why not? Extended OCI's not withstanding, why not take advantage of a synth regardless of OCI if it makes you feel better?
I think veepster has the right idea.
I would use whatever HD recommends; both type of oil (dino or synth) and OCI during your warrantee period. You might want to run a few UOA's at HD's recommended OCI to get a feel for what's going on for your particular riding style. If out of your warantee period, you then may or may not want to extend your OCI depending upon your comfort level.
BTW, ask your HD dealer about engine bearing failures associated with the use of synthetics and see what kind of reaction you get.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000368#000000
If you want to run synth in place of dino, why not? Extended OCI's not withstanding, why not take advantage of a synth regardless of OCI if it makes you feel better?
I think veepster has the right idea.
I would use whatever HD recommends; both type of oil (dino or synth) and OCI during your warrantee period. You might want to run a few UOA's at HD's recommended OCI to get a feel for what's going on for your particular riding style. If out of your warantee period, you then may or may not want to extend your OCI depending upon your comfort level.
BTW, ask your HD dealer about engine bearing failures associated with the use of synthetics and see what kind of reaction you get.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000368#000000
First of all, I admit that I use Synthetic in my Sportster Engine and Transmission - in the summer. I use the synthetic because of the high South Texas heat and no other reason. The Sporty definitely runs cooler with Mobil 1 15W-50. I run Mobil 1 75W-90 in the transmission all year. I run Havoline 20W-50 in the engine the rest of the year, and change the oil every 2500 miles regardless if it's Dino or Syn. Did my gas mileage go up with the Synthetic? Not that I could tell. Does it shift better? Yep. The new Harley Davidson Syn 3 is a dino / PAO blend from Conoco. The old Syn 3 was a group III from Sunoco. I wouldn't put either in the same league with Amsoil, Mobil 1 or Redline. I have not seen any evidence that synthetics have better wear characteristics with short OCIs or that they are slicker, but they do handle temperature extremes better.
One advantage of synthetics is they generally have a higher flashpoint and tend to stay in grade longer which would be a concern in an aircooled Vtwin especially the rear cylinder which can run hotter.
I had an RC51 which is a high performance liquid cooled Vtwin and the rear cylinder ran much hotter than the front even being liquid cooled...I had excellent results with the Mobile 1 15W50 with OCI's averaging about 2,500 miles.
I had an RC51 which is a high performance liquid cooled Vtwin and the rear cylinder ran much hotter than the front even being liquid cooled...I had excellent results with the Mobile 1 15W50 with OCI's averaging about 2,500 miles.
Look in the UOA's on this forum.
Type in "Harley" and you'll see that:
1. Synthetics do not provide any better wear numbers than dinos--in fact, the wear metal data favors the dinos if you ask me.
2. Synthetics will shear in these air cooled engines just like dinos will (see the Mobil 1 15W50, and even the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 UOA's). Harley Syn3 sheared to a 30 weight in one UOA here.
3. The add packs are no better (in many cases, they are worse) with synthetics.
4. Judging from the condition of some of the synthetics in these UOA's, you'll be fooling yourself and doing your motorcycle quite a disservice by extending the drains.
If I do say so myself, I haave posted one of the best Harley Davidson UOA's on the board--and this was on a 2500 mile run on Havoline 20W50 dino oil.
If you care about your engine, don't extend the drains. There is too much that can/might/will happen to the oil to leave it in there for much longer than that. How would you like to pay 9 dollars a quart for Mobil 1 V-Twin and get a UOA that looks like THIS after 2100 miles? Note the viscosity has already dropped considerably from VOA's... While the wear metals aren't bad, they are no better than can be achieved with a decent dino oil (and certianly worse than my Havoline numbers
... )
Or, how you would you like to be THIS GUY with well under 3000 miles on Syn3 in a V-rod? Viscosity is pretty much a light 30 weight! Yeah, sure, run that Syn3 another 2000 miles...
(And you can't even blame the shearing of this oil on the hot running air cooled engine; the V-rod is water cooled!)
Wise up folks. Use a good dino and change your oil at 2500 mile intervals--or 2000 mile intervals when you've done some hard riding on hot days.
Then your UOA's will look more like:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000024
Dan
Type in "Harley" and you'll see that:
1. Synthetics do not provide any better wear numbers than dinos--in fact, the wear metal data favors the dinos if you ask me.
2. Synthetics will shear in these air cooled engines just like dinos will (see the Mobil 1 15W50, and even the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 UOA's). Harley Syn3 sheared to a 30 weight in one UOA here.
3. The add packs are no better (in many cases, they are worse) with synthetics.
4. Judging from the condition of some of the synthetics in these UOA's, you'll be fooling yourself and doing your motorcycle quite a disservice by extending the drains.
If I do say so myself, I haave posted one of the best Harley Davidson UOA's on the board--and this was on a 2500 mile run on Havoline 20W50 dino oil.
If you care about your engine, don't extend the drains. There is too much that can/might/will happen to the oil to leave it in there for much longer than that. How would you like to pay 9 dollars a quart for Mobil 1 V-Twin and get a UOA that looks like THIS after 2100 miles? Note the viscosity has already dropped considerably from VOA's... While the wear metals aren't bad, they are no better than can be achieved with a decent dino oil (and certianly worse than my Havoline numbers
Or, how you would you like to be THIS GUY with well under 3000 miles on Syn3 in a V-rod? Viscosity is pretty much a light 30 weight! Yeah, sure, run that Syn3 another 2000 miles...
Wise up folks. Use a good dino and change your oil at 2500 mile intervals--or 2000 mile intervals when you've done some hard riding on hot days.
Then your UOA's will look more like:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000024
Dan
I'm with fuel tanker man on this .
Use a good dino oil , change it when you think it is tired , and forget the bologna about synthetics being
more fluid
more slippery than dino oil
able to take higher temps
lasting longer
In other words --
being some miracle juice that will cease engine wear, grow hair on your head, and make you a stud in bed.
But if it makes you feel good to use it -- go for it.
And remember to put that Slick 50 in your car also ...............
Use a good dino oil , change it when you think it is tired , and forget the bologna about synthetics being
more fluid
more slippery than dino oil
able to take higher temps
lasting longer
In other words --
being some miracle juice that will cease engine wear, grow hair on your head, and make you a stud in bed.
But if it makes you feel good to use it -- go for it.
And remember to put that Slick 50 in your car also ...............
Holy Cow, its absolutly unbeliveable, someone on this board telling what a lot of peoples beleive but are too shy to say,
Dino rocks for everyday user , synthetic rocks for marketer and for peoples with sleeping problem !!
Dino rocks for everyday user , synthetic rocks for marketer and for peoples with sleeping problem !!
Pondered then pondered some more.
Then, suddenly, abruptly, the pondering ceased.
Realization struck me full-on akin to a jack rabbit hoppity hop hopping across the multi-lane Interstate freeway smack dab in front of the Kenworth snarling down the super slab at 80 mph, impacting the front bumper and being tossed to the ground where 5 enormous wheels compressed the critter into the pavement, leaving a furry lump for the carrion eaters to gorge themselves upon.
That realization was that I have no idea whether dino oil is as good, worse, or better than using a synthetic in that motorcycle.
But, do not lambast the power of pondering!!!!!!
Considering that 2-wheeled putt putt is an air-cooled engine it seems to me that a synthetic may convey some benefits.
Then, suddenly, abruptly, the pondering ceased.
Realization struck me full-on akin to a jack rabbit hoppity hop hopping across the multi-lane Interstate freeway smack dab in front of the Kenworth snarling down the super slab at 80 mph, impacting the front bumper and being tossed to the ground where 5 enormous wheels compressed the critter into the pavement, leaving a furry lump for the carrion eaters to gorge themselves upon.
That realization was that I have no idea whether dino oil is as good, worse, or better than using a synthetic in that motorcycle.
But, do not lambast the power of pondering!!!!!!
Considering that 2-wheeled putt putt is an air-cooled engine it seems to me that a synthetic may convey some benefits.
That is one great post fuel tanker man!
I've been second guessing myself for a while now with my oil choices thinking I should switch to expensive synthetics and run them longer.
I'm going to stay with my reasonable priced semi synthetic group 3 and change it at a reasonable interval like I have been doing.
I've been second guessing myself for a while now with my oil choices thinking I should switch to expensive synthetics and run them longer.
I'm going to stay with my reasonable priced semi synthetic group 3 and change it at a reasonable interval like I have been doing.
Even on liquid cooled Vtwins the rear cylinder tends to run hotter than the front...The Vrod is also a high performance Vtwin, has a redline of 9,000 rpm, while I'm not sure what the redline specs of older style HD engines are I would think they have a lower rpm ceiling....But this totally depends on how aggressively he rode it...quote:
Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
Look in the UOA's on this forum.
Type in "Harley" and you'll see that:
1. Synthetics do not provide any better wear numbers than dinos--in fact, the wear metal data favors the dinos if you ask me.
2. Synthetics will shear in these air cooled engines just like dinos will (see the Mobil 1 15W50, and even the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W50 UOA's). Harley Syn3 sheared to a 30 weight in one UOA here.
3. The add packs are no better (in many cases, they are worse) with synthetics.
4. Judging from the condition of some of the synthetics in these UOA's, you'll be fooling yourself and doing your motorcycle quite a disservice by extending the drains.
If I do say so myself, I haave posted one of the best Harley Davidson UOA's on the board--and this was on a 2500 mile run on Havoline 20W50 dino oil.
If you care about your engine, don't extend the drains. There is too much that can/might/will happen to the oil to leave it in there for much longer than that. How would you like to pay 9 dollars a quart for Mobil 1 V-Twin and get a UOA that looks like THIS after 2100 miles? Note the viscosity has already dropped considerably from VOA's... While the wear metals aren't bad, they are no better than can be achieved with a decent dino oil (and certianly worse than my Havoline numbers... )
Or, how you would you like to be THIS GUY with well under 3000 miles on Syn3 in a V-rod? Viscosity is pretty much a light 30 weight! Yeah, sure, run that Syn3 another 2000 miles...(And you can't even blame the shearing of this oil on the hot running air cooled engine; the V-rod is water cooled!)
Wise up folks. Use a good dino and change your oil at 2500 mile intervals--or 2000 mile intervals when you've done some hard riding on hot days.
Then your UOA's will look more like:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000024
Dan
If you do frequent OCI's such as you mentioned there are some excellent regular dinos that do work quite well...
IMHO extended drains with any oil on a motorcyle is not a good idea synthetic or not, but you cannot deny the higher HTHS numbers and higher flashpoints of some good synthetics. I do think that the idea that you need an MC specific oil, wether it be a synthetic or dino is a joke...Plenty of excellent "car" oils that have comparable VOA's to those MC oils that have "special" additive packages for $3 more per quart..
You can pick and choose the oil samples that best support your case and avoid the ones that don't...I'm sure you can find some poor UOA's with dino and make a case for synthetic as well. Too many other factors involved that will have an impact on the UOA's especially when comparing two completely different motors.
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