Video about Fram end caps

[GMBoy]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Thanks for posting the video.

I've never had a single issue with a Fram. My main concern with them is I am not convinced the ADBV seats well against the fiber end cap and they don't have enough media for the price. I will use one in a heartbeat if it comes with an oil change special though.



I agree it isn't so much the engineering as it is the value for the money. Why buy a fram when you can get a slightly better quality of filter for about the same price?


Yep - it comes down to what you said...there are just too many better filters for the money to mess with an OCD.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: Pajamarama

This offer to visit the FRAM HQ sounds like a really cool opportunity. Did anyone make the trip?


I'm still waiting for the invitation to get a tour of the factory that makes the Double Guard filters packed with Teflon® or the factory that makes the High Mileage filters that ooze out the gel.

 

[bullwinkle]

This sounded interesting-I wonder too if sayjac or anyone else went-work has been too busy for me to go (and Toledo is only around 180 miles north of me)-but it would be interesting to hear how it went?

 

[ZeeOSix]

I think sayjac was planning on going. If so, I'm interested in hearing what his experience was.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I think sayjac was planning on going. If so, I'm interested in hearing what his experience was.

Just got back from the Fram Perrysburg Ohio testing lab last night, will post later under separate thread. I will say I was treated first class manner all the way, and got some answers to some questions frequently discussed here.

 

[08sienna]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
According to SAE paper number: 2010-01-1542

"The Evaluation of Mechanical Design and
Comparison of Automotive Oil Filters"

"Cardboard is not a superior material for an endcap due to possible durability issues". Oil operating temperature and fluctuations in pressure and flow rates over time could lead to "porosity" of the cardboard endcap or
"total failure".

Well, this paper is from the proceedings of International Powertrains, Fuels & Lubricants Meeting, which means it's not a peer reviewed paper. No guarantee there in terms of quality of informations in it.

Obviously, companies "filter" informations to choose what to publish and what not to, many people use conferences as marketing opportunities as well.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: 08sienna
Originally Posted By: modularv8
According to SAE paper number: 2010-01-1542

"The Evaluation of Mechanical Design and
Comparison of Automotive Oil Filters"

"Cardboard is not a superior material for an endcap due to possible durability issues". Oil operating temperature and fluctuations in pressure and flow rates over time could lead to "porosity" of the cardboard endcap or
"total failure".

Well, this paper is from the proceedings of International Powertrains, Fuels & Lubricants Meeting, which means it's not a peer reviewed paper. No guarantee there in terms of quality of informations in it.

Obviously, companies "filter" informations to choose what to publish and what not to, many people use conferences as marketing opportunities as well.


No. This paper was published by the SAE International Journal of Fuels and Lubricants from research done by Dr. Daming Zang, Professor of Transportation Systems at California State University. He is an engineering specialist in engine and powertrain, NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness) CAE, and finite element and boundary element simulation. The co-researcher is Daniel Lamon who works for the GSA (US government fleet management). This is a peer reviewed paper and is not from the proceedings of International Powertrains, Fuels & Lubricants Meeting. It is not even listed as ever being a part of those procedings.

 

[08sienna]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: 08sienna
Originally Posted By: modularv8
According to SAE paper number: 2010-01-1542

"The Evaluation of Mechanical Design and
Comparison of Automotive Oil Filters"

"Cardboard is not a superior material for an endcap due to possible durability issues". Oil operating temperature and fluctuations in pressure and flow rates over time could lead to "porosity" of the cardboard endcap or
"total failure".

Well, this paper is from the proceedings of International Powertrains, Fuels & Lubricants Meeting, which means it's not a peer reviewed paper. No guarantee there in terms of quality of informations in it.

Obviously, companies "filter" informations to choose what to publish and what not to, many people use conferences as marketing opportunities as well.


No. This paper was published by the SAE International Journal of Fuels and Lubricants from research done by Dr. Daming Zang, Professor of Transportation Systems at California State University. He is an engineering specialist in engine and powertrain, NVH (Noise, Vibration, and Harshness) CAE, and finite element and boundary element simulation. The co-researcher is Daniel Lamon who works for the GSA (US government fleet management). This is a peer reviewed paper and is not from the proceedings of International Powertrains, Fuels & Lubricants Meeting. It is not even listed as ever being a part of those procedings.


oops, I am sorry for the incorrect post. A couple of google stroke made me believe it was from a proceedings.

BTW, how did they test it and draw such a confident conclusion?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 08sienna


BTW, how did they test it and draw such a confident conclusion?


I would imagine if they ran the test, and paid for it, they could come to any conclusion they wanted???

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: 08sienna

BTW, how did they test it and draw such a confident conclusion?


The researchers deconstructed about 20 oil filters to compare and evaluate only their design, materials, and construction. The assessment of each filter's quality was based on well-known/established criteria for a quality filter. Some of what they looked at was: bypass valve (location, design, construction materials, spring type, seal, etc), media end-cap (metal/non-metal, adhesive/bond strength, seal, etc), anti-drainback valve (silicone/nitrile, design, seal, etc), can burst strength, media area/thickness-holding capacity, and on and on. There is no commercial affiliation with the researchers or bias in this study. The purpose of the study was to illustrate the differences between brands and to promote the need for an industry standard that will benefit consumers. Right now, there are poor designs and materials used by some filter manufacturers relative to others. No matter what Fram says or how people "feel" about cardboard endcaps, they are inferior to metal endcaps. I personally believe that cardboard and metal endcaps are not as good as polymer endcaps; particularly, a polymer endcap that is thermally fused (molten) to the media during its manufacturer.

If you want to know what a quality full flow oil filter looks like, take what Ford says about their filters and look at how they are built.

 

[08sienna]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: 08sienna

BTW, how did they test it and draw such a confident conclusion?


The researchers deconstructed about 20 oil filters to compare and evaluate only their design, materials, and construction. The assessment of each filter's quality was based on well-known/established criteria for a quality filter. Some of what they looked at was: bypass valve (location, design, construction materials, spring type, seal, etc), media end-cap (metal/non-metal, adhesive/bond strength, seal, etc), anti-drainback valve (silicone/nitrile, design, seal, etc), can burst strength, media area/thickness-holding capacity, and on and on. There is no commercial affiliation with the researchers or bias in this study. The purpose of the study was to illustrate the differences between brands and to promote the need for an industry standard that will benefit consumers. Right now, there are poor designs and materials used by some filter manufacturers relative to others. No matter what Fram says or how people "feel" about cardboard endcaps, they are inferior to metal endcaps. I personally believe that cardboard and metal endcaps are not as good as polymer endcaps; particularly, a polymer endcap that is thermally fused (molten) to the media during its manufacturer.

If you want to know what a quality full flow oil filter looks like, take what Ford says about their filters and look at how they are built.


So they opened up bunch of filters, looked into them and published their own "feel" (=well known criteria). I expected somewhat controlled experiments.

I am not saying they are commercially biased or anything like that. But I just don't see much difference from what people here do and share their feels. Maybe I am missing something because I don't have that paper.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: 08sienna


So they opened up bunch of filters, looked into them and published their own "feel" (=well known criteria). I expected somewhat controlled experiments.

I am not saying they are commercially biased or anything like that. But I just don't see much difference from what people here do and share their feels. Maybe I am missing something because I don't have that paper.


I can not post the paper here because of SAE copyrights, but the study is not comparable to what you find on BITOG or anywhere else. The difference is that the study is done by an automotive engineer who specializes in engine systems and has done work for Ford and Caterpillar. The evaluation criteria is not based "feels", but is grounded in oil filter design principles and construction knowledge/technology. The criteria used is one that is shared by many OEMs. There is alot of research and knowledge on the subject that is too technical or boring for a person not in this field. Not all filters are created the same and some OEMs go out their way to make sure certain specifications are met for OEM supplied filters.

I can understand the skepticism about this paper if someone is not in this field (automotive engineering). Either way, spin-on whatever filter you wish. This is a legitimate study that calls out cheap/poor oil filter design and construction to advocate establishing uniform oil filter industry standards to benefit consumers.

 

[TomYoung]

I did a 10,000 mile oil change using a Fram orange can that came from WM (purchased by accident). The oil was Castrol Edge w/titanium. The car is a 2001 Acura TL that finished the OCI at 170k.

The world did not end.

I realize that it is cool to hammer Fram filters on BITOG for being either damaging to engines, or for the grad students to suggest that the filters are a few bucks too expensive.

Does anyone have any evidence of actual damage caused by a Fram filter failure?

How about an example of a fiber end cap disintegrating or detaching after extended use?

BTW, if Fram made a black filter, I would use it in my 911.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: TomYoung

BTW, if Fram made a black filter, I would use it in my 911.


Ask, and you shall receive ...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2743428#Post2743428