USUAL 8.8 Ford gear whine; RL Shockproof or LE1606

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 10bears
This is with only 25,000 miles on the car, so this was a botched differential setup by Ford.

I decided that with all those fairly high powered data logging pulls with things this far out, the gear set almost certainly now has a wear pattern on it that will always mean it will be noisy.


I was always told by installers, and gear people/vendors that the above is the case (noisy wear pattern) in as little as 500-1000 miles!!

You should like the 3.73s, more snap/response, but they don't KILL mileage, or force you into the rev limiter at/near the traps/top end (IF you drag race at all) in 4th, like 4.10s or above will.

 

[10bears]

Jim and DailyDriver,

Thank you very much for valued input. Good to know on the 3.73:1 gears. I only went 1 step up from the 3.55's as the blower motor would incinerate the tires already. Just thought the 3.73's would let the boost ramp up quicker in 3rd and 4th..

I bought some time by attenuating the noise, but diagnostics clearly showed that pinion bearing preload (at a mere 25,000 miles) was GONE - like zero - with some side lash.. and the gear pattern OEM by Ford was very poor.

Build update:

I had to learn the very hard way by loading and adjusting the gears many times that apparently SOME FRPP gears like mine respond BACKWARDS from the FRPP pinion shim adjustment chart.

Finally got it dialed in with a super nice pattern. The Ratech side shims included in the FRPP suffix B2 installation kit were very poor. Full of burs; wavy; cupped. They install like springs. So I fought side shimming the whole while.

For final assembly, I have special ordered 1 piece Ford side shims in the correct thicknesses since I believe the Ratech "springy" side shims probably compromise builds either immediately or soon in the future. I personally believe the poor Ratech shims are one piece in the puzzle of why 8.8 rebuilds become noisy so often soon after the build.

Having reached the right pinion shim, I cleaned the axle housing and all parts AGAIN, twice. Installed the pinion gear/bearings/slinger/crush sleeve/seal today. That's a lot of torque to pull under a car on jack stands to crush the crush sleeve but I got it without resorting to a rattle wrench, so little chance of bearing or race damage. New bearings are turning smooth and quiet as they should.

27 inch pounds of pinion bearing preload measured on a Proto gauge type low range inch pounds torque wrench. Oddly, break away and rolling torque were identical. I used Amsoil 75w110 as assembly lube so it must be some really slippery stuff. I was impressed.

I was targeting 25 inch pounds (new bearing spec is (16-28) but ended up with 27. Due to the kinda tight preload, I'll do a couple of low speed short drives with cooling between prior to the first 30 minute heat cycle.

I did my gear setup with 20 inch pounds of pinion bearing preload each time with no seal expecting about 5 inch pounds of seal friction, so I doubt 27 will mess with my setup much.

Will be using the LE1606 for break in lube and for the long term after changing out the break in lube. The stuff is odd colored; they say purple, I say dark maroon. Almost blood red but translucent; not opaque.

Anyway, I'll update the thread again as things progress. The side shims should arrive by 2nd day air tomorrow according to tracking, so maybe I can button it up tomorrow or Saturday.

I've got the cover on and axle openings stuffed with rags to keep dirt and rodents out.

Later,

Micke

 

[dailydriver]

Sounds GREAT, but rodents?!?!

I PITY the poor little squeaker who settles down in that 'nest' once you let that boosted monster rip!!

(But not as much as you having to do ALL of this yet again because of said squeaker.

)

 

[10bears]

dd,

That's funny! Could be ironic; axle "whining" comes back because of a ground up "squeaker"! lol

OTOH, the LE1606 is already blood red, so it'd probably look about the same plus some fur and bone chips..

Seriously, where I live there is a so called "plague" of rodents. Packrats and deer mice. The latter carries Hantavirus in this area; either can carry rabies or bubonic plague. I have bait stations all over the place to keep the little bastiges killed back somewhat..

 

[fpracha]

Originally Posted By: 10bears
Jim and DailyDriver,

Will be using the LE1606 for break in lube and for the long term after changing out the break in lube. The stuff is odd colored; they say purple, I say dark maroon. Almost blood red but translucent; not opaque.


i heard it has to be transparent-translucent maroonish-purple (not dark purple), isnt it so ?
i say thanks to you for sharing your unique experience here!
hope it works out for the best

 

[10bears]

Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: 10bears
Jim and DailyDriver,

Will be using the LE1606 for break in lube and for the long term after changing out the break in lube. The stuff is odd colored; they say purple, I say dark maroon. Almost blood red but translucent; not opaque.


i heard it has to be transparent-translucent maroonish-purple (not dark purple), isnt it so ?
i say thanks to you for sharing your unique experience here!
hope it works out for the best

Speedway sells it in a generic solid white bottle, so not much light is getting in there. It could easily appear darker than actual in this bottle. I suppose using the term blood red wasn't very specific since the appearance of blood varies widely depending on location (arterial, venous, liver, etc).

Dark maroon would be an accurate description at present IMHO, but again, that is in a bottle that is not letting much light in.

If I put it in a clear bottle for installation, I'll let you know what I think then. 'Course, it's still gonna be a bit subjective.

I'm glad you found the thread to be worthwhile. I've enjoyed documenting my axle adventure.

Kind regards,

Micke

 

[10bears]

Here are some pics of the LE1606 140w synth blend gear oil.

The color reproduction isn't 100% accurate but is close; probably best shown on the foil in the cap or on the white bottle.

Other familiar colors nearby for comparison (Ford Racing box).

To avoid copyright infringment, I'll call the color "Imperial Purple". ;-) Seriously, the color is very different from RP products.

Starting with overview picture; gear oil in clear glass looks very dark; almost black but still with strong maroon/purple tones:

Next is a closeup of the bottle. Thinner quantities of the gear oil over the bright white bottle look distinctly maroon/purple just as fpracha said:

Finally, here is a picture of the glass when draining the gear oil out; here the color looks "brandwine" to me:

Not that my nose is a chem lab; it is not. But while the first odor of this stuff is akin to gear oil, on closer review this stuff definitely smells different than any other oil or gear oil I've ever smelled.

No, I'm NOT going to taste it! ;-)

It is 84* F right now and the oil seems to pour thicker than the watery thin full synth 75w140 and 85w140 gear oils I've drained recently. But a lot thinner than old school 100% conventional base 90w gear oil.

Not that the above means much; just some subjective observations.

If I get some time before my hip replacement, I may send in a sample for VOA 'cause the above observations are pretty weak.

Micke

 

[10bears]

The odor is not overpowering like old gear oils and it certainly isn't horrific like XL-3

It smells different than other gear oils but I would categorize the severity of odor as about on a par with most modern full synth gear oils I've dealt with recently. That is to say, fairly mild.

I'm not saying I'll be glad to have it in my hair next time I drain the break in gear oil...

but I'm glad it is not revolting to work with.

edit: Oops. I'll be adding XL-3 when I install the LE1606, so I guess I'd better be sure NOT to get any in my hair or I'll be banned from the house!.. 'course the garage IS pretty well set up..

M

 

[INDYMAC]

Yes, that's unmistakably Duolec. I've been using 1605 for about 5 years now. Don't get it on any clothing that you care about. It is an exceptional gear oil. Please do a VOA if you can with TAN. I have done UOA's, but would like to know the starting TAN.

 

[INDYMAC]

I still can't figure out how Speedway is able to attain 1 gal jugs of any Duolec grade.

 

[10bears]

Indymac,

Thank you for input. Good to know. If/when I run the VOA, will be sure to request TAN.

Speedway says they run the LE1606 140w in their 350 mph streamliner at Bonneville. That is using an antique differential that supposedly used to fail regularly. The LE1606 supposedly stopped all failures in that antique QC axle...

But even so, I'll bet they change oil and gear oil after every full 2 way run... or maybe after a couple.

My point is, they supposedly first started running this stuff for their streamliner; it probably gets a lot of gear oil changed through it in one season of running/practice running.

Thereafter, Bill is a pretty smart guy. I'm betting he figured if it can arrest wear and failures in an antique diff on the receiving end of ludicrous power on super long WOT pulls, it might do some good things in his street cars; family; friends, etc.


So my guess is this: He probably started buying it in 50 or 55 gallon drums, then being the adept marketer he is, figured he could parcel it out. The parceling is at least somewhat suggested by the generic plain white jugs. The jugs do not have the big red/blue LE logo or anything. Just plain white.

I hope and believe he is authorized by LE to do this. I'm glad to hear you say it looks like the genuine article 'cause there are constants in my world like the sun rising and setting, etc... and Speedy Bill's company Speedway Motors being an honest good guy is one of my personal constants. Something I found I could always rely upon for the past 35 years.

'k. End plug for Speedway.

Thanks again for valued input!

Micke

 

[10bears]

Hey, Indymac,

I've seen some controversy on which labs are "best" for VOA/UOA in BITOG.

Is Blackstone the best place to go if I want VOA with TAN or is there another lab you think might be better?

I'm not saying anything about Blackstone here; I have no first party experience. To me, Blackstone's reports always looked pretty good. But then, I'm not an oil expert. Only asking 'cause I don't know.

Another thought: If I use the same lab that you have used for LE gear oil UOA's, might we then have a better basis for direct comparison due to perhaps more similar testing protocols? Just a thought.

Thanks,

Micke

 

[INDYMAC]

I used to use Blackstone for gear oil UOA's. But I just bought a 10 pack of Polaris Lab Advanced Mobile kits and will start using them. My favorite lab for the last few years has been Dyson Analysis' lab, MRT. But they've parted ways recently, and I decided to try Polaris. Good luck, and keep us updated on your new rearend.

BTW, I think it would be a good idea to contact LE about using LS additives with Duolec. You may not need any.

 

[10bears]

Originally Posted By: INDYMAC
I used to use Blackstone for gear oil UOA's. But I just bought a 10 pack of Polaris Lab Advanced Mobile kits and will start using them. My favorite lab for the last few years has been Dyson Analysis' lab, MRT. But they've parted ways recently, and I decided to try Polaris. Good luck, and keep us updated on your new rearend.

BTW, I think it would be a good idea to contact LE about using LS additives with Duolec. You may not need any.


Indymac,

Good news! The axle is back together. Waiting for "The Right Stuff" silicone gasket to dry until tomorrow, then first short low speed low power heat cycle.


Thanks for the info. Polaris it is.

Regarding LSD additive: It's anecdotal, but a lot of guys in the Ford Mustang community believe that the only friction modifier that is effective with Ford clutches is XL-3.

In possible partial support of this: When I switched to RP about 5,000 miles ago, the LSD started groaning soon after. I did not add fm for a year thinking fm is supposedly in RP.

Then, I switched to Amsoil gear oil. Also supposed to have fm in it. Groaning continued. I added 2 bottles of the Amsoil fm, but the groaning kept on during tight low speed turns.

On disassembly, I found one clutch shim that was ground up and flaking badly. This is where the steel was coming from.

It is likely this shim was heat treated incorrectly and NO fm anywhere would have stopped the groaning.

My plan: Each short heat cycle during break in, finish with one low speed figure 8. There will be groaning or even violent chatter with new clutches even though I soaked them in XL-3 for 3 hours.

If the chatter continues after 4 heat cycles and figure 8's, add half a bottle of XL-3. Repeat another 4; add another half bottle.

The point is, even if LE says it has clutch fm in it, it will probably need XL-3 - but I will add it only as needed until the groaning shuts up. And I definitely won't ignore it for a year like last time 'cause I think that caused some damage.

Micke

 

[Highline9]

well I went through this post kinda fast. Most of the time you have a lite throttle whine it is caused by not enough pinion bearing preload. Its really not hard to fix. Thicker oil may mack but you need more bearing preload.

 

[Highline9]

Dial torque wrench is all you need. May be the races were not bottomed out.

 

[10bears]

Not gonna recap the whole thread, but no, resetting pinion bearing pre-load absolutely would not have prevented the need for this overhaul.

Exhaustive diagnostics clearly said: gears shot; unforgivably bad pattern from Ford OEM; pinion bearing preload gone; clutch steels fragmenting/flaking; too much uneven/offset wear pattern in pinion bearing races, etc etc.

It was an all around bad setup by Ford. Axle was shot at 25,000 miles.

Overhaul successful; very quiet; nice. Haven't gotten to see what the addt'l gear ratio will be like as I'm doing a gentle break in.

To clarify: Re-setting pinion bearing preload would not have even possibly saved this one.

It's a "pat" answer that is used a bit too much. Diagnostics take precedence.

Micke S.
Degreed & Cert'd ASE Master Tech - retired for 9 years now

 

[10bears]

Originally Posted By: 10bears


"...I bought some time by attenuating the noise, but diagnostics clearly showed that pinion bearing preload (at a mere 25,000 miles) was GONE - like zero - with some side lash.. and the gear pattern OEM by Ford was very poor...."

"...pinion bearing preload I measured on a Proto gauge type low range inch pounds torque wrench..."




This thread was all about looking for quickie fixes. I found some that helped, but in the end, as noted above, the axle asy was toast and was only going to get louder. I therefore abandoned the original premise of the thread and overhauled the axle asy myself.

And yeah, the gauge type inch pounds torque wrench thing had already been covered. As a former master tech, I kept some of my good tools after I retired.

The pinion bearings were nowhere near bottomed out in the races; I would personally only expect to see that after a melt down and then setting pre-load wouldn't even be considered as the pinion bearings would be GRINDING.

No offense, but if ya' don't have time to read the thread, that's ok. But maybe don't comment if you don't know what is going on. It could lead people to believe that merely re-setting pinion bearing pre-load might have fixed this specific problem on this car whereas that was not possible.

Furthermore, properly re-setting used pinion bearing pre-load is a fairly complex procedure requiring removing the axles and carrier case/ring gear in order to get rational readings. But that's another subject.

And for the record: The so often read refrain in the net "just set pinion bearing preload" I believe has a poor track record for a number of reasons I'm not going to dice here.

 

[10bears]

^^That sounded grouchy!

Back to topic:

It was a very minor whine, too. I'm surprised by how badly off various things were in there. Ford QC/QA should have caught this botched axle asy for sure for several glaring errors.

I'm glad to have stopped with bandaids and just overhauled the axle asy.

Looking forward to how the added gear ratio behaves; but I have 500 miles of break-in to go before "fun" blower boost, etc.

 

[INDYMAC]

To go off topic a little more 10bears, I'm breaking in a new Toyota 4Runner (well, my wife is) and would like to know when you think I should dump the Toyota 75W-85 gear oil in the rear diff. It has 1400 miles on it right now. Heat cycling was not an option since my wife just wants to get in it and go. My plan was to drain and fill with LE1605 at 2K miles. Does that sound about right to you? It has a drain and fill plug, so I won't be able to inspect much.

It's an open diff that holds 2.9 qts on D&F.