Toyota Is Raising Service Intervals to 10k miles

[bepperb]

ARCO may be the best engine technician on the planet, and singlehandedly design every Honda engine they produce, but his "experiences" absolutely do not mesh with those of anyone I have ever known. He's a short oci guy who recommends HDEO for practically every application. In his experiences he shared with me on another thread, he believes the life expectancy for a modern engine is 40,000 miles, and he has had "a few go between 40,000 and 60,000". He also thinks that cams actuating buckets (like the 2AZFE on this list) "bucket over" cams are the same as flat tappets, and that these engines need SL levels of ZDDP. So take his opinion with a good dose of salt. Timing chain failure on a modern engine? Really? Buy a lottery ticket the day that happens to you.

IMO, this will work fine. Sure there will be abuse of this, people going longer than specd and having sludge issues. But they have those same issues with the current 5000 OCI. And really, the 5000 mile recommendation is a little short these days.

Really, I'm surprised that Toyota doesn't have a calculated Maintenance Minder system. It's 2010 for crying out loud. It would require all the technology and cost of a 99 cent calculator.

 

[BGK]

Originally Posted By: elwaylite

Quote:


Engine durability and longevity is already exceeding the need. Now if the OEM's can figure out an auto transmission to match most of the engines that they manage to give long life, then they'll have earned their pay.


Isn't that the truth....


That's the whole problem; the transmission, air conditioning, cooling system and electrical components will need work in some way or another and could be quite expensive to fix while the engine, if a good design and well maintained can last well beyond 200k miles. A lot of the clunkers we took in trade where I work had good engines with other major problems. Some were perfectly good vehicles, just not worth anything because they were gas hog suv's and such. The ironic part is the engine has to be destroyed to make it go through the clunker program!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Without knowing any better, it would almost appear that they intended to neutralize the reliability of the timing chain to some equivalency with the timing belt in terms of true life expectancy. This would make sense if the whole engineering overview was governed by a target "end of life" in terms of how you spec your parts/designs.


It may be. There's an engineering analysis of Toyota's 1ZZ-FE engine, and here's what they had to say about the camshaft drive system:

CAMSHAFT DRIVE SYSTEM – The four different chain
drive systems shown in Fig. 19 were considered for
determining the basic specifications. The timing belt in
No.1 is the lightest, though system No.4, which uses a
single chain to directly drive both the intake and exhaust
camshaft from the crankshaft, has been found to be
advantageous. It uses a small-pitch (8mm) chain to make
the system affordable in terms of the overall length, the
number of parts used and cost. In drive system No.4, it is
necessary to provide a wider pitch between camshafts
than in drive system No.1 even though the cam sprockets
were made smaller by adopting the small-pitch chain.
Nonetheless, it meets the dimensional requirements originally
planned for 1ZZ-FE and was thus adopted. The
chain cover generally takes up a large percentage of the
chain drive system in terms of mass and cost. In 1ZZ-FE,
the chain cover has been integrated with the water pump
swirl chamber cover and accessories bracket, thereby
realizing an even lighter, more compact cost effective
system than that examined in Fig. 19.

Source: http://www.spyderchat.com/1zzfe.pdf

It appears that overall engine length was a large driving factor for the choice of a chain. As a consumer, I flock to that. You are right that there are potentially more failure points with chains. But in my experience, a GOOD chain system will be maintenance-free for as long as you care to operate the engine. There are some chain systems that are notorious for making noise (like many Nissan systems). There's got to be an engineering reason behind that, because most systems don't suffer the same types of "compromises" (at least to the naked eye).

 

[GMZ]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Really, I'm surprised that Toyota doesn't have a calculated Maintenance Minder system. It's 2010 for crying out loud. It would require all the technology and cost of a 99 cent calculator.


They do, it is like a CEL that says "MAINT" in yellow. It comes on overy 5K in my 4R. Comes on early and flashes on and off, then stays on after 5K. Had one on my 06 4R too.

 

[bepperb]

No, not an idiot light that comes on at a mileage. My HL has that.

A Honda/GM style "how many revs and how long has the oil been hot" intelligent system that bases OCI on conditions besides simple mileage. Lexus has it.

For the Belt/Chain argument... sure there will be bad chain tensioners but there will be bad belt tensioners too. I'd rather take the chance of replacing a chain than know full well I will have to replace the belt. I'd say 1 in 10,000 chance of a chain needing replacement. If a guide needs replacement, that will still cost less than a belt and is easier to do. The only good arguments I can understand are noise and weight.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk


Sadly, I'm just starting to think that you're an anti-Toyota shill. You seem to have experienced multiple failures in numerous systems on multiple different Toyotas -- although nobody else seems to have had the same problems. You're either the unluckiest car owner on the planet, or . . .

I'm neither a fan or a spoiler - just surprised (and severely disappointed) as you or anyone else that we only got 58K out of the 2AZFE and the 1nzfe was next in line. If I would place blame it would be equally on API oil and engine design. I dont see the majority of FORD products having timing system or piston issues. Toyota has demonstrated in the past that they dont/didnt have a handle on API conventional oil capability with their PREVIOUS gen camry "sludger" motors. My yaris is running well on premium "synthetic' oil now, but If API SM conventiona; oils are so good why can't I use it in the 1NZFE engine to good effect? AFA "nobody else" - my office is full of folks who have had MAJOR longevity issues with the 'toyota as god' on properly serviced vehicles. Better start asking around or maybe you're afraid to do so given you own a stable of them.

 

[bepperb]

So what happened to the 2azfe and 1nzfe? Did they burst into flames spontaniously, throwing rods through the sides of the block?

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

He must have terrible luck if he's only able to get that low mileage out of an engine. Especially one with the reliability and longevity of the 2az-fe.

My mom's Camry has only needed oil changes for the engine and the drive belts are on their way out, but it hasn't given us any problems with 76k miles on it. Heck I need to use up left over 5w-20 from my Honda and the Camry has had it for almost 10k miles and it hasn't exploded. It's a 2004 so it wasn't even back speced for it.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
So what happened to the 2azfe and 1nzfe? Did they burst into flames spontaniously, throwing rods through the sides of the block?
1nzfe is still running, but had a bad bout of sticking chain tensioner (untensioned) on and off for 20K miles when breaking in on conventional oil (mclean5k and pyb). mY wifes 05 rav4 5mt awd had the same on and off tensioner sticking starting around 30K miles then started having severe piston slap and concomitant high oil usage. Then the WP seal gave out. Her car was serviced by the toyota dealer using "genuine toyota motor oil" and service filters exclusively. My car, inz Yaris, which is still running, is serviced by me to a high standard; was trying to get by with mc5k 5w30 and toyota service filters but they didnt work for me - at least through the break in period. I have now moved to wix filters and Castrol syntec custom blend - and the engine runs great (given good fuel in the tank).

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
ARCO may be the best engine technician on the planet, and singlehandedly design every Honda engine they produce, but his "experiences" absolutely do not mesh with those of anyone I have ever known. He's a short oci guy who recommends HDEO for practically every application. In his experiences he shared with me on another thread, he believes the life expectancy for a modern engine is 40,000 miles, and he has had "a few go between 40,000 and 60,000". He also thinks that cams actuating buckets (like the 2AZFE on this list) "bucket over" cams are the same as flat tappets, and that these engines need SL levels of ZDDP. So take his opinion with a good dose of salt. Timing chain failure on a modern engine? Really? Buy a lottery ticket the day that happens to you.
Thanks for mis-quoting me

Engine Killer: I have a life expectancy for MY engine/drivetrains driven by me used in severe service commuting of 40-60k miles based on recent experience. I'm trying to improve on that. Play Tappets for me: Toyotas "economical" engine design SUB OHC is in the "flat tappet" family as are classic cam-in-block pushrod OHV V8s. They dont have a bullet nosed or timken follower, they employ a flat tappet with NO LASH TAKEUP, E.G: many old dohc MC designs, Toyota 1nz, 2az, Chevy Vega 2.3L, Suzuki 2.7L V6. My wife's subaru uses neither tappets or pushrods, rather direct acting rollerised rocker system with no lash takeup.
No OCD on OCI: I tend to bend towards the moderate OCI. I am not a 3k OCI guy or change my oil on my new car immediately when I get home to "get the shavings out

" I am doing the 5k prescribed and warranteed OCI on the Toyota and 5-6K on the subaru. I would leave the oil in longer on the toyota given it is "synthetic" with a good dose of Ca, But I am unwilling to push during warranty. I may move the wife's subaru to syn oil and go the whole 7.5K in the spring/summer period though not winter. Generally if you dont have a bypass system you are accumulating wear particulate in the engine and the 10-15um stuff is a wear agent. Is thsi the difference between a 250K and 350K motor? Doesnt apply to me - I want a new car WAY before then. I worry more about varnish on the toyota and about pretty much nothing on the subaru.
Your tappets are stuck! I forgot to mention that the dealer also noted at the 60K 2azfe toyota service that many valves were "way" out of spec for lash and required replacement. I'll have to pull the quote, but I recall it was a stunning $640+ labour since the cam box and engine front cover and chains had to be completely removed to service and said tappets were net-build and required replacement. Needless to say, we traded the car for the 09 fos x 5mt subaru ( $18.9K off the lot). Driving home it developed a rod knock.

 

[webfors]

You had me at 'subaru' ARCO

God I love my subie! My oci is 10k km, which is about 6.2k miles. Nice round number (in km) to work with.

Only owned 1 toyota, 13 year old corolla 5spd I bought off a used car lot for $800 when I was going to university. It had 180k km and I injected another abusive 60k kms over 2 years. Only had to put tires and an alternator in it. Haven't run into any people with toyota horror stories... yet

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
ARCO may be the best engine technician on the planet, and singlehandedly design every Honda engine they produce, but his "experiences" absolutely do not mesh with those of anyone I have ever known.


Abscess make the heart grow Honda: I have never designed a Honda engine. I wish I was on the design team from VEC who did the early 90's coil in cap distributer. Would have saved my wife's (there she goes AGAIN!) civic from melting down the cat due to molding meld striations in the distcap radiating from the centre to some or each of the plug terminals. Crossfire when humid; No start when humid. Stunning! Oh,BTW, when I went to check the valve lash at 30K, the rocker fulcrums were worn WAY out of spec and couldnt get a consistent lash adjustment. This A 1.5?L SOHC base civic.

Cigar time! - later guys and gals

 

[GMFan]

I don't really believe that the engines will croak if they use dino for 10k miles.

I will say that most of the engines that will croak will be from the fleet of secretaries and moms that drive Corollas who never happen to check their oil. Every 3k miles keeps a lot of people's cars alive, just in regards to keeping the oil level proper.

If these engines turn to oil consumers in the later years, prepared for a lot of publicity on failing Toyota engines.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Real LL syn + GL5 stay in oil additisation good sump size and good filter capacity = NP 10k OCI light service. As long as they learn something from FORD about building 20wt motors and chain cam drives. I recall reading that the original designer of the flathead v8 was consulting on the modular motor design - Invaluable Input! I find many Jr. engineers have no praticable experience; the much storied and valued workforce has retired or gone beyond

 

[elwaylite]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
ARCO may be the best engine technician on the planet, and singlehandedly design every Honda engine they produce, but his "experiences" absolutely do not mesh with those of anyone I have ever known. He's a short oci guy who recommends HDEO for practically every application. In his experiences he shared with me on another thread, he believes the life expectancy for a modern engine is 40,000 miles, and he has had "a few go between 40,000 and 60,000". He also thinks that cams actuating buckets (like the 2AZFE on this list) "bucket over" cams are the same as flat tappets, and that these engines need SL levels of ZDDP. So take his opinion with a good dose of salt. Timing chain failure on a modern engine? Really? Buy a lottery ticket the day that happens to you.

IMO, this will work fine. Sure there will be abuse of this, people going longer than specd and having sludge issues. But they have those same issues with the current 5000 OCI. And really, the 5000 mile recommendation is a little short these days.

Really, I'm surprised that Toyota doesn't have a calculated Maintenance Minder system. It's 2010 for crying out loud. It would require all the technology and cost of a 99 cent calculator.


I'm glad someone else sees this [censored] too.

 

[SilverC6]

I trusted PP in my old Toyota Sienna at 7500 mile changes.

I don't see any problem running the new Camry for the same interval with synthetic 0W-20.

Right now I'll have to use green bottle fuel saving Mobil 1.

Hopefully Pennzoil engineers are working feverishly on new PP 0W-20 and 0W-30 formulations.

Is that true Johnny?

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Needless to say, we traded the car for the 09 fos x 5mt subaru ( $18.9K off the lot). Driving home it developed a rod knock.


Your new Subaru developed a rod knock on the way home?

Seriously, it sounds like you have extremely lousy luck. For an engine to last no longer than 40-60k miles is pretty much unheard of these days. Where is your commute, man?

 

[elwaylite]

Man, that guy is full of [censored].

 

[asiancivicmaniac]

Originally Posted By: Jason Adcock
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Needless to say, we traded the car for the 09 fos x 5mt subaru ( $18.9K off the lot). Driving home it developed a rod knock.


Your new Subaru developed a rod knock on the way home?

Seriously, it sounds like you have extremely lousy luck. For an engine to last no longer than 40-60k miles is pretty much unheard of these days. Where is your commute, man?


He needs to make a sacrifice to the motor gods, lol.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: ekpolk


Sadly, I'm just starting to think that you're an anti-Toyota shill. You seem to have experienced multiple failures in numerous systems on multiple different Toyotas -- although nobody else seems to have had the same problems. You're either the unluckiest car owner on the planet, or . . .

I'm neither a fan or a spoiler - just surprised (and severely disappointed) as you or anyone else that we only got 58K out of the 2AZFE and the 1nzfe was next in line. If I would place blame it would be equally on API oil and engine design. I dont see the majority of FORD products having timing system or piston issues. Toyota has demonstrated in the past that they dont/didnt have a handle on API conventional oil capability with their PREVIOUS gen camry "sludger" motors. My yaris is running well on premium "synthetic' oil now, but If API SM conventiona; oils are so good why can't I use it in the 1NZFE engine to good effect? AFA "nobody else" - my office is full of folks who have had MAJOR longevity issues with the 'toyota as god' on properly serviced vehicles. Better start asking around or maybe you're afraid to do so given you own a stable of them.


Yawn. I'm sorry -- this is just silly. Our Prius has already gone about twice as far as you seem to suggest it should live. And it doesn't even consume ANY oil over a 5k OCI yet. . .

Afraid? Nothing could be further from the truth. My experience, and that of several millions of others, shows that these cars are very reliable.

Feel free to take this trollery elsewhere.