It's been long said by most people that to get 0W-anything, one would need Gr IV and V base stocks in major amounts. I'm not sure if this is true anymore. Petro Canada's 0w30 is for sure Gr III, and it uses a reasonable amount of moly. I've seen shelf space and sprice tag reserved for NEW Castrol GTX 0w30- of which I can find no reference to online. It seems to me that it would nearly be impossible for the blenders of Honda and Toyota's 0w20 to turn any kind of profit at the price they sell at, esp. considering the more costly ad pack (500-600ppm moly). Further, that much moly seems to indicate heavy reliance on it for AW protection with the added benefit of friction modification (two birds with one stone). I strongly suspect the Honda and Toyota 0w20s are Gr III+ at best. Who would agree or disagree and why?
Toyota/Honda 0w20 Gr III?
- Thread starter ItsuMitsubishi
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I havent looked at the pump capabilities of grp III bases - the oil needs to be less viscous than 60K cP at -40 (ASTM D 4694). That would be the indicator for a 0W - good ones are usually better than 20K cP. You could use a iso syn refined light oil and add VII till it comes out your nose I suppose - but since a 5w20 should be more shear stable than a eq 5w30, I wouldnt want a 20 oil made that way and the resultant glop most likely would not meet API SN for deposit mass and stay-in-grade capability.
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In the reference samples I had tested by Dyson Analysis of the Honda and Toyota red/black bottle 0W-20s (see the VOA section), Terry's opinion was that they were either Group III, III+, or III-IV with advanced additive packages. The common denominator here is the Group III base oil. Yes, you're absolutely right. Group IV-V oil would be priced significantly higher. Toyota/Honda wouldn't sacrifice healthy profit margins on their parts.
Many people believe that 0W-20 oil must be fully synthetic to meet specification. Have they never heard of pour point depressants?
Many people believe that 0W-20 oil must be fully synthetic to meet specification. Have they never heard of pour point depressants?
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I almost forgot about this post. I just wanted to say thank you to Bruce for the valuable input! You're the "bruce blend" guy arent you?
Sorry, that's not me. You're thinking of bruce381.
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Many people believe that 0W-20 oil must be fully synthetic to meet specification. Have they never heard of pour point depressants?
That might be true, however AAP is selling Castrol Edge in the stores I shop at for 50 cents less than the other grades. I would have thought it would be more.
Many people believe that 0W-20 oil must be fully synthetic to meet specification. Have they never heard of pour point depressants?
That might be true, however AAP is selling Castrol Edge in the stores I shop at for 50 cents less than the other grades. I would have thought it would be more.
That's strange. Maybe they're trying to boost CE 0W-20 sales?
Originally Posted By: Bruce T
Sorry, that's not me. You're thinking of bruce381.
ah yeah, my mistake!
Edge prices have been very strange since the Deepwater Horizon Incident. A week after, Edge was put on sale at a few outlets here, WalMart being one of them. I believe it could be a bad PR countermeasure.
Sorry, that's not me. You're thinking of bruce381.
ah yeah, my mistake!
Edge prices have been very strange since the Deepwater Horizon Incident. A week after, Edge was put on sale at a few outlets here, WalMart being one of them. I believe it could be a bad PR countermeasure.
That's OK confusing the two of us, but realize I don't know a fraction of what bruce381 knows as a formulator.
Yes, maybe it's due to fallout from the BP disaster, although I wonder how many people outside of BITOG know that Castrol is owned by BP. Ha, if I were Castrol, I would hide "BP" on my websites.
Yes, maybe it's due to fallout from the BP disaster, although I wonder how many people outside of BITOG know that Castrol is owned by BP. Ha, if I were Castrol, I would hide "BP" on my websites.
...and Castrol bottles.
Originally Posted By: river_rat
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
I strongly suspect the Honda and Toyota 0w20s are Gr III+ at best. Who would agree or disagree and why?
Prolly so.
1. Price
2. and (at least mine) sheared quite a bit.
I suspect the shear is by design. It is to maximize fuel mileage after all.
Originally Posted By: ItsuMitsubishi
I strongly suspect the Honda and Toyota 0w20s are Gr III+ at best. Who would agree or disagree and why?
Prolly so.
1. Price
2. and (at least mine) sheared quite a bit.
I suspect the shear is by design. It is to maximize fuel mileage after all.
When 0W-XX oils first became available they were all PAO based.
But technology doesn't stand still. Most 0W-XX oils are now GP III based and you don't need to use PP suppresants to meet the 0W-XX requirement.
Toyota's and Honda's 0W-20 oils are GP III based and I doubt they contain any GP IV fluids in their base oils.
Last winter I asked American Honda's principal chemist Jeff Jetter, about the oil's chemistry and this is part of what he had to say on the subject;
" The 0W-20 product is 100% Group III as far as I know. PAO and esters make for expensive oils."
Oil formulators are always looking for the cheapest way to make a product that still meets the required spec's. Rouge21 recently informed me that Petro-Canada has changed the formulation of it's HDEO Duron 0W-30. It used to be 100% GP III and labeled synthetic. That oil has been replaced by the Duron 0W-30 synthetic blend. AFAIK, it's the first 0W-XX syn-blend oil on the market but I'm sure more will follow.
But technology doesn't stand still. Most 0W-XX oils are now GP III based and you don't need to use PP suppresants to meet the 0W-XX requirement.
Toyota's and Honda's 0W-20 oils are GP III based and I doubt they contain any GP IV fluids in their base oils.
Last winter I asked American Honda's principal chemist Jeff Jetter, about the oil's chemistry and this is part of what he had to say on the subject;
" The 0W-20 product is 100% Group III as far as I know. PAO and esters make for expensive oils."
Oil formulators are always looking for the cheapest way to make a product that still meets the required spec's. Rouge21 recently informed me that Petro-Canada has changed the formulation of it's HDEO Duron 0W-30. It used to be 100% GP III and labeled synthetic. That oil has been replaced by the Duron 0W-30 synthetic blend. AFAIK, it's the first 0W-XX syn-blend oil on the market but I'm sure more will follow.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Rouge21 recently informed me that Petro-Canada has changed the formulation of it's HDEO Duron 0W-30. It used to be 100% GP III and labeled synthetic. That oil has been replaced by the Duron 0W-30 synthetic blend. AFAIK, it's the first 0W-XX syn-blend oil on the market but I'm sure more will follow.
Not quite. Chevofreak posted that Brad Penn makes a 0W30 blend.
http://www.amref.com/CMSFiles/File/bp_pb/7126_50_44_58_19_BP_PG1_Multigrade_HP_Oils_PB.pdf
There may be others or as you noted there will be others.
Rouge21 recently informed me that Petro-Canada has changed the formulation of it's HDEO Duron 0W-30. It used to be 100% GP III and labeled synthetic. That oil has been replaced by the Duron 0W-30 synthetic blend. AFAIK, it's the first 0W-XX syn-blend oil on the market but I'm sure more will follow.
Not quite. Chevofreak posted that Brad Penn makes a 0W30 blend.
http://www.amref.com/CMSFiles/File/bp_pb/7126_50_44_58_19_BP_PG1_Multigrade_HP_Oils_PB.pdf
There may be others or as you noted there will be others.
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