"The world's cheap reserves are basically gone"

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: grampi

So why are alternatives not further developed so they're less expensive? There are a lot of technologies that are too expensive to use at first, but they're almost always further developed to bring down costs....just seems strange to me this isn't happening with alternative energy sources...

It may surprise you to learn that gasoline (and cars) are still extremely cheap in the USA. That is the direct result of economies of scale, competition and low fuel taxes.
It is essential to urgently develop alternatives to avoid burning fossil fuels before our climate gets even worst than it is going to get. With cheap gas this paradigm change is not going to occur naturally fast enough and so it becomes the job of our collective governments to accelerate the economics appropriately.

However, both your government and ours are made up of lawyers and businessmen, with no science education whom are more interested in their own wealth and popularity, and are not going to upset the voting public by any suggestion of taking away their "toys." Your cheap gas will remain and I would suggest that if you live in an area affected by the polar vortex last winter your best bet is that you might want to consider moving.
We had the so-called "polar vortex" last winter here in Ohio-compared to the winters of my youth in the late 1970s it wasn't that bad. Unfortunately we here in the USA can cut energy consumption as much as we want-but China will make up for it.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
We had the so-called "polar vortex" last winter here in Ohio-compared to the winters of my youth in the late 1970s it wasn't that bad. Unfortunately we here in the USA can cut energy consumption as much as we want-but China will make up for it.


You make it sound as though us Americans can just quit using energy anytime we want...it isn't that easy...and China's economy is slowing down, so they will be using less...

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
Originally Posted By: grampi
$4 gas is not cheap...and before you say anything about what Europeans pay for gas, it's not comparable....their prices are mostly taxes that go to pay for many services we pay for here out of our own pockets...

I would say it's entirely comparable. What "services" provided are going to make your car move?

I pay $8.50 (per US gal) and the included tax pays only for roads otherwise the voters would raise a stink. Much of the extra cost is due to our remote location. I used get annoyed at paying $30 a tank in California when I lived there about a decade ago but now it's $100 every tank, about 270 miles, more than 3 hours take-home pay. No big deal, it's still no more expensive than taking the bus and more-importantly the price encourages me to not waste the stuff.


You have some expensive roads! Does you asphalt have gold in it?



And we have some expensive tax in the form of income tax or property tax or sales tax to pay for these roads. Pick your poison.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: grampi
...and China's economy is slowing down, so they will be using less...


No, they will continue to grow but at a slower pace. Still exponential. I wonder if people understand what's going to happen when a billion people start driving cars?

I'm not arguing with you. I agree with your stance above.

The alternate fuel haters need to wise up and quickly.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: grampi
...and China's economy is slowing down, so they will be using less...


No, they will continue to grow but at a slower pace. Still exponential. I wonder if people understand what's going to happen when a billion people start driving cars?

I'm not arguing with you. I agree with your stance above.

The alternate fuel haters need to wise up and quickly.







You got that right....more of every type of energy can only be a good thing, anyone who says otherwise is either nuts, or works for big oil...

 

[Shannow]

Problem is that the third world won't stay slaves to the first world for very long.

e.g. China was happy making our trinkets, now wants our lifestyle, and are competing for energy.

Every country that's turned into an ethanol farm, as mentioned over and over here

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3047914/all/Pure_Gas_vs._10__E

is ultimately going to want to use it all for themselves...and make it more expensive for you.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Problem is that the third world won't stay slaves to the first world for very long.

e.g. China was happy making our trinkets, now wants our lifestyle, and are competing for energy.

Every country that's turned into an ethanol farm, as mentioned over and over here

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3047914/all/Pure_Gas_vs._10__E

is ultimately going to want to use it all for themselves...and make it more expensive for you.


If they're producing ethanol, then it reduces the demand on gasoline and oil for us.

You'll stand on your head to spin ethanol as an evil.

 

[chuck1955]

Turtlevette how much oil does corn ethanol replace when you take into consideration how much is used to make it? I have asked numerous sites and nobody seems to want to touch this question. With all our expertize that should be an obvious question. Were already using 40% of our corn crop. How much more can we afford to put into this program?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Chuck, i hope your expectations are low or you are likely to be extremely disappointed.

No one anywhere thinks ethanol is "evil". These are the standard belittling arguments that are used to attempt to devalue the person rather than address the topic. They simply do nothing.

Good questions, but not a single good answer from those ethanol fans...

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Chuck, i hope your expectations are low or you are likely to be extremely disappointed.

No one anywhere thinks ethanol is "evil". These are the standard belittling arguments that are used to attempt to devalue the person rather than address the topic. They simply do nothing.

Good questions, but not a single good answer from those ethanol fans...

Everything I've read about ethanol from corn, has it not replacing much oil at all. Corn needs so many inputs to keep yeilds up, and its hard on the land as well. Its more of a make work program for Monsanto, John Deere, and a few farmers...
Ethanol from sugar cane OTOH, makes more sense but I assume that doesn't grow well in Ohio....

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
ethanol fans...


Traditional conservative big oil fans like you will experience real disappointment when we all have to walk due to gasoline shortages. But I guess your shares in oil companies will go up when they knife America in the back. Then you'll be happy.

How much is food going to cost when we're paying $10 a gallon for gas?

So you can have expensive food and walk rather than expensive food and drive.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
ethanol fans...


Traditional conservative big oil fans like you will experience real disappointment when we all have to walk due to gasoline shortages. But I guess your shares in oil companies will go up when they knife America in the back. Then you'll be happy.

How much is food going to cost when we're paying $10 a gallon for gas?

So you can have expensive food and walk rather than expensive food and drive.



Perhaps you should find your own happiness instead of worrying about mine. You need some in your life! If ethanol was anything you think it is then we would all be happy. But the lies stop here.

Some facts would help, too...

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Traditional conservative big oil fans like you will experience real disappointment when we all have to walk due to gasoline shortages. But I guess your shares in oil companies will go up when they knife America in the back. Then you'll be happy.

How much is food going to cost when we're paying $10 a gallon for gas?

So you can have expensive food and walk rather than expensive food and drive.

And let me guess, you still believe in the Population Bomb as well?

Gas is used because it is cheap. If it goes to $10 a gallon it won't be cheap anymore and other alternatives will be used. Isn't that the entire point of persons that want to lower the living standards of the general population by artificially imposing a tax that makes gas more expensive?

And there is no shortage of oil or gas.

 

[grampi]

We certainly need something besides gas/diesel, but ethanol isn't the answer...what we need are more CNG powered vehicles (and along with that have natural gas available at all gas stations, as there are currently very few refueling places for CNG), we need battery technology to be improved to extend the range of battery powered vehicles, and every car company should have a hybrid model available in every model they make...these are some things that COULD be done right now...for the life of me I can't understand why the industry seems to want to wait until our backs are against the wall before anything different is done...as others have mentioned, we can't just keep plugging along doing the same ol' same ol' and not expect to put ourselves in a bad situation...

 

[kschachn]

Why? There is a mature and efficient infrastructure already in place for gasoline and diesel, the vehicles run very cleanly on both, and there is certainly no shortage of crude oil. Why struggle to implement a brand new infrastructure for some other fuel? For what ultimate gain?

Besides, being a liquid, gasoline and diesel are always going to be the easiest to distribute, store and utilize.

And lastly the only reason anybody has their back against the wall is purely political. There is NO fundamental reason why refined petroleum products should be in short supply in this country.

Originally Posted By: grampi
We certainly need something besides gas/diesel, but ethanol isn't the answer...what we need are more CNG powered vehicles (and along with that have natural gas available at all gas stations, as there are currently very few refueling places for CNG), we need battery technology to be improved to extend the range of battery powered vehicles, and every car company should have a hybrid model available in every model they make...these are some things that COULD be done right now...for the life of me I can't understand why the industry seems to want to wait until our backs are against the wall before anything different is done...as others have mentioned, we can't just keep plugging along doing the same ol' same ol' and not expect to put ourselves in a bad situation...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why? There is a mature and efficient infrastructure already in place for gasoline and diesel, the vehicles run very cleanly on both, and there is certainly no shortage of crude oil. Why struggle to implement a brand new infrastructure for some other fuel? For what ultimate gain?

Besides, being a liquid, gasoline and diesel are always going to be the easiest to distribute, store and utilize.

And lastly the only reason anybody has their back against the wall is purely political. There is NO fundamental reason why refined petroleum products should be in short supply in this country.

Originally Posted By: grampi
We certainly need something besides gas/diesel, but ethanol isn't the answer...what we need are more CNG powered vehicles (and along with that have natural gas available at all gas stations, as there are currently very few refueling places for CNG), we need battery technology to be improved to extend the range of battery powered vehicles, and every car company should have a hybrid model available in every model they make...these are some things that COULD be done right now...for the life of me I can't understand why the industry seems to want to wait until our backs are against the wall before anything different is done...as others have mentioned, we can't just keep plugging along doing the same ol' same ol' and not expect to put ourselves in a bad situation...


You don't see a problem relying only on one energy source? I do. We're eventually going to have to move on to something else anyway...why keep putting off the inevitable? Again, I see no down side to having as many energy sources as possible...however, I do see lots of negatives by continuing to allow the oil industry to keep the market cornered...

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
You don't see a problem relying only on one energy source?

One energy source?

Coal is used, as is NG for power generation.

You say we need better batteries. Those are not power sources, they are merely storage devices. The actual power has to come from somewhere, and in the foreseeable future, nothing can replace coal and NG to supply that.

Gasoline has shown itself to be a reliable and readily available source of portable energy for at least 100 years. Nothing else comes close with current technology, and no one can know what it's replacement will be.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
You don't see a problem relying only on one energy source?

One energy source?

Coal is used, as is NG for power generation.

You say we need better batteries. Those are not power sources, they are merely storage devices. The actual power has to come from somewhere, and in the foreseeable future, nothing can replace coal and NG to supply that.

Gasoline has shown itself to be a reliable and readily available source of portable energy for at least 100 years. Nothing else comes close with current technology, and no one can know what it's replacement will be.


I'm talking about energy sources for our vehicles...coal can't be used in vehicles...and while batteries are technically not a power source, they are when they're installed in an electric vehicle...I think you knew what I meant, you were just being facetious, weren't you? No matter how reliable, or readily available fossil fuels are, it's still a bad idea to rely on one energy source...

 

[kschachn]

Of course natural gas is a fossil fuel, so maybe you were being facetious when you mentioned that for motor vehicles. What do you suggest as an alternative? Solar? I hardly think that is more reliable or readily available.

It's not just because "we have always done it that way" that gasoline and diesel are used for vehicles. It is because they are a liquid high-density energy source. Any kind of a gaseous fuel is at a disadvantage right off the bat due to its lower density. That could be improved by liquefying it, but then that brings about a whole list of additional problems. Clathrates? Metal hydrides? All are expensive and you would only be implementing them to overcome the inherent disadvantage of gas. Once again, why? You are still relying on a hydrocarbon fuel.

Batteries are much the same thing. I worked for one of the premier battery manufacturers here in the US. We worked on a lot of different battery technologies, most of which were aimed at increasing the energy density. But high energy density batteries quickly become extremely dangerous when short-circuited. Although gasoline is quite flammable it is actually a lot easier to protect a gas tank in a collision than it is a battery bank. High energy density batteries require high energy materials, and when the containment apparatus is breached it can become a problem in a hurry. Just ask Boeing about the batteries for a 787. And these batteries are no where near the energy density you really need for a practical electric car.


Originally Posted By: grampi
I'm talking about energy sources for our vehicles...coal can't be used in vehicles...and while batteries are technically not a power source, they are when they're installed in an electric vehicle...I think you knew what I meant, you were just being facetious, weren't you? No matter how reliable, or readily available fossil fuels are, it's still a bad idea to rely on one energy source...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Of course natural gas is a fossil fuel, so maybe you were being facetious when you mentioned that for motor vehicles. What do you suggest as an alternative? Solar? I hardly think that is more reliable or readily available.



NG is considered an alternative power source for vehicles because it isn't widely used like gas and diesel are. What I am saying we should use, along with the gas and diesel we're using now, is more NG powered vehicles, more hybrids, and more totally electric vehicles...more choices and more energy available equals lower prices, plus it would prevent big oil from holding consumers over the proverbial barrel...