TES-668, a great Multi-ATF?

[MolaKule]

Afton messed up the DI package for Mobil 1 LV ATF HP (Dexron HP), which was the factory fill for certain GM transmissions. That was the black label ATF from Mobil. After that mess, Mobil switched to Infineum's new MV ATF additive package, re-blended the fluid, and got a new Dexron HP license number. Consequently, Afton lost the contract. They messed up pretty badly, and it cost GM a pretty penny to remedy the situation, as well as several law suits they had to go through.

Mobil, Pennzoil, and British Petroleum all use Infineum's additives since they have a triumvirate interest in Infineum so any problems would have begun with Infineum, or the possibility that someone at Mobil had made a poor specification document for the LV HP. I suspect the latter since Infineum has an impeccable reputation for additive quality at a decent price point.
.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

The Allison Transmission fluids engineer (Tom Johnson) involved in developing Transynd TES-295 is an active member on the irv2 forum, and has a very lengthy (over 100 pages) thread where he answers questions regarding Allison transmissions. In one of his posts, he gives a lengthy explanation into why TES-295 was developed. The explanation above is not in harmony at all with what he shares about the development of Transynd.

According to Top, it was an issue with Dexron III shearing, as Matt gets close to. He shares some great information. It seems that his explanation should be sound, as he claims he personally presented Transynd at an SAE conference in 1998.

Former Allison Transmission Fluids Engineer - Page 30 - iRV2 Forums

Originally Posted by TRAILERKING It's not about the "Chump Change $ Difference" even though the Wolf's Synthetic costs me $7.00/ltr. as opposed to the $13.00/ltr. our local Allison dealer

www.irv2.com

I am well aware of "Mr. TranSynd" (that's his nickname I believe). I read many of his posts, and I am not disagreeing with you. My explanation talks about the additive package, not about the specification itself. It is also very possible that after Lubrizol and other companies developed the additive package for TES-295 that it was used for other ATFs as well. Industrial developments can trickle down to consumer products. This happens in IT quite frequently, not just in the lubricant industry.

Mobil, Pennzoil, and British Petroleum all use Infineum's additives since they have a triumvirate interest in Infineum so any problems would have begun with Infineum, or the possibility that someone at Mobil had made a poor specification document for the LV HP. I suspect the latter since Infineum has an impeccable reputation for additive quality at a decent price point.
.

I think this will be easier than me explaining, considering that I was supposed to be asleep two hours ago ... I'm nearly mumbling now:

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEXRON

 

[BHopkins]

I am well aware of "Mr. TranSynd" (that's his nickname I believe). I read many of his posts, and I am not disagreeing with you. My explanation talks about the additive package, not about the specification itself. It is also very possible that after Lubrizol and other companies developed the additive package for TES-295 that it was used for other ATFs as well. Industrial developments can trickle down to consumer products. This happens in IT quite frequently, not just in the lubricant industry.

Tom does state that Castrol worked very closely with Allison in the development of Transynd TES-295. How would Castrol have been involved in additive package development back in the late '90's? Does Allison still have a tight relationship with Castrol?

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Tom does state that Castrol worked very closely with Allison in the development of Transynd TES-295. How would Castrol have been involved in additive package development back in the late '90's? Does Allison still have a tight relationship with Castrol?

An additive package is not a finished formulation. You can take the same additive package and blend the least expensive ATF (let's call it a semi-synthetic), or you can use high quality base oils and co-bases. The additive package is not everything. It just so happens that in case of ATFs the additive package is closely tied to the friction modification characteristics of the fluid. Big asterisc here, as these can be altered by adding certain esters to the fluid, for example. I'm a hobbyist with a Master's in Speculation. @MolaKule can explain this way better than I can.

Let's put it this way: you want to make a new TES-295 fluid and submit it to Allison for approval. But you want to be different than everyone else, and you're not concerned about TES-468. The additive package used in M1 LV ATF HP will cover the friction modification characteristics you're looking for. You blend your fluid, and make sure that it passes the other reuirements like wear protection, oxidation, shear stability, viscosity, etc, then submit it for approval. The additive package alone is not the full spec of the ATF. The blender has to make sure that they implement it properly.

I was very close to trying TES-668 in a ZF 8HP70, but due to time constrains, I opted to go with M1 LV ATF HP blue label. Still, TES-688 works perdectly in transfer cases, just look at my signature.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Mobil, Pennzoil, and British Petroleum all use Infineum's additives since they have a triumvirate interest in Infineum so any problems would have begun with Infineum, or the possibility that someone at Mobil had made a poor specification document for the LV HP. I suspect the latter since Infineum has an impeccable reputation for additive quality at a decent price point.
.

Ironically, Mobil and Shell have moved away from Infineum in a lot of cases. Which is why we had the HDEO shortage last year.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Historically, every ATF specification that GM or Allison has issued was sent to Afton where the DI package was developed. The factory fill for most of those transmissions was blended by PetroCanada using Afton's DI package.

Historically sure.

668 was launched in the middle of the biggest supply disruption for finished products probably in history. So a lot of things got changed. Some majors are still reeling from shortages and lack of supply. Additive manufacturing still isn’t perfect.

Edit: I’ll just ask them next week. I have a meeting with them.

 

[nascarnation]

Tom does state that Castrol worked very closely with Allison in the development of Transynd TES-295. How would Castrol have been involved in additive package development back in the late '90's? Does Allison still have a tight relationship with Castrol?

My group ran most of the lab tests for Tom back then at Allison. Castrol was definitely the supplier of the finished fluid, but a lot of companies jumped on board after it was released to production. We've both been retired for 15 yrs so I'm not sure who is the supplier to Allison today.

That stuff is hard to kill. We ran 75,000 miles at New York City Sanitation (one of our rigorous end-user sites), drained it out and put the fluid in a new transmission in our lab, then ran a full life cycle test (that's a LONG EXPENSIVE test that takes months and months to run even with 24/7 operation) and everything was fine at the end.

 

[Foxtrot08]

My group ran most of the lab tests for Tom back then at Allison. Castrol was definitely the supplier of the finished fluid, but a lot of companies jumped on board after it was released to production. We've both been retired for 15 yrs so I'm not sure who is the supplier to Allison today.

That stuff is hard to kill. We ran 75,000 miles at New York City Sanitation (one of our rigorous end-user sites), drained it out and put the fluid in a new transmission in our lab, then ran a full life cycle test (that's a LONG EXPENSIVE test that takes months and months to run even with 24/7 operation) and everything was fine at the end.

295 was certainly pretty bomb proof. I had an engineer at Allison told me in an OTR truck it was tested to 500,000 miles without an issue. The reason why it was stopped after that is other parts of the truck failed. Which required the transmission fluid to be replaced.

 

[nthach]

That stuff is hard to kill. We ran 75,000 miles at New York City Sanitation (one of our rigorous end-user sites), drained it out and put the fluid in a new transmission in our lab, then ran a full life cycle test (that's a LONG EXPENSIVE test that takes months and months to run even with 24/7 operation) and everything was fine at the end.

Buses don’t live an easy life either - and there’s multiple suppliers(Allison, ZF, Voith) and now multiple hybrid drives(Allison 2-Mode and BAE series drive). While ZF and Voith want their own fluid(made by Shell or XOM in Germany and related to ZF Lifeguard 5/6, Esso LT71141/Shell M1375) they are totally fine with Allison TES-295 and I’ve seen drums of Mobil Delvac 1 ATF at the local transit agency yards.

They do 30k OCIs for their trans fluid.

 

[Duckless]

Thanks for all the replies!!! Great information.

A follow up question.. for my application, what kind of drain interval should I do?

TranSynd states "...extended drain intervals of up to 300,000 miles / 48 months in general-duty transmissions and up to 150,000 miles /48 months in severe-duty transmissions." But, Ford wants 30k OCIs, and I think BTS says the same. It will have a larger cooler, BTS valve body, an in-line spin-on filter, and this sweet sweet TES-668 coursing through it while pulling around a car hauler trailer.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

A follow up question..

You don't have an Allison transmission, so be sensible about it. Do a full fluid replacemwnt and then a "spill'n'fill" every 30K miles to freshen up the fluid. An Allison transmission has beefed up cluctchpacks with larger diameter clutches and is reinforced overall. I'd live to have one in our RAM 1500.

 

[Duckless]

Oh yeah I definitely wasn't thinking I'd test out the 300k mark!

 

[weasley]

Mobil, Pennzoil, and British Petroleum all use Infineum's additives since they have a triumvirate interest in Infineum

Sorry, what is BP's interest in Infineum?

Infineum | History

www.infineum.com

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Sorry, what is BP's interest in Infineum?

Infineum is actually a joint venture between two major oil companies, ExxonMobil and Shell, rather than BP. This company specializes in the development, production, and marketing of lubricant additives for use in automotive, industrial, and marine engines, as well as fuel additives for gasoline and diesel fuels. BP does not hold a direct stake or interest in Infineum. However, due to the interconnectedness of the oil and gas industry, it's possible that BP might interact with Infineum in the course of business operations, such as purchasing additives for their own range of petroleum products.

 

[weasley]

Infineum is actually a joint venture between two major oil companies, ExxonMobil and Shell, rather than BP. This company specializes in the development, production, and marketing of lubricant additives for use in automotive, industrial, and marine engines, as well as fuel additives for gasoline and diesel fuels. BP does not hold a direct stake or interest in Infineum. However, due to the interconnectedness of the oil and gas industry, it's possible that BP might interact with Infineum in the course of business operations, such as purchasing additives for their own range of petroleum products.

Yes, of course. All oilco's buy from all addco's regardless of the addco ownership or heritage. The same goes for base oil supplies.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Edit: I’ll just ask them next week. I have a meeting with them.

What did they say?

 

[Foxtrot08]

What did they say?

Infineum. They were the only ones producing that additive package at the time. And the first to have it licensed with Allison.

 

[BHopkins]

My group ran most of the lab tests for Tom back then at Allison. Castrol was definitely the supplier of the finished fluid, but a lot of companies jumped on board after it was released to production. We've both been retired for 15 yrs so I'm not sure who is the supplier to Allison today.

That stuff is hard to kill. We ran 75,000 miles at New York City Sanitation (one of our rigorous end-user sites), drained it out and put the fluid in a new transmission in our lab, then ran a full life cycle test (that's a LONG EXPENSIVE test that takes months and months to run even with 24/7 operation) and everything was fine at the end.

That would explain why Tom frequently encourages users of 668 to not drain and fill simply on miles/years, but instead strongly recommends results from fluid sampling and analysis, to determine when to change 668.

That seems like great advice, when the current retail price for Castrol Transynd 668 is around $52 - $55/gal. My 3000HD takes just shy of 5 gallons for a drain and fill, with new filters. With around $350 just in materials to complete a drain and fill, if a $33 fluid analysis can tell me that I'm good for another 5k or 10k miles, it's worth it.

 

[56Cummins]

That would explain why Tom frequently encourages users of 668 to not drain and fill simply on miles/years, but instead strongly recommends results from fluid sampling and analysis, to determine when to change 668.

That seems like great advice, when the current retail price for Castrol Transynd 668 is around $52 - $55/gal. My 3000HD takes just shy of 5 gallons for a drain and fill, with new filters. With around $350 just in materials to complete a drain and fill, if a $33 fluid analysis can tell me that I'm good for another 5k or 10k miles, it's worth it.

I agree on testing with large capacity setups, for sure. Its convenient that Tom is invested in a testing facility.

In response to the thread title, a performance rebuilder on another forum is recommending this fluid in a lot of applications. Must be good.