Stuff that is NOT required in a modern car

[1 FMF]

the big thing with ethylene glycol coolants, whether it be the traditional green stuff or the new extended life/dexcool stuff (still ethylene glycol based) is that the E.G. won't break down inside the engine. As long as you maintain the proper 50% E.G. & water mix, you will still have the same low freezing and high boiling point. And you can change regular coolant after 10 years of service and it can come out very clean and very green, but there's a lot going on that you can't see. The whole problem is with the corrosion inhibitors and other additives in coolant to protect the various metals in an engine from corrosion, electrolysis!, and scaling/rust build up. You also have to worry about the additives falling out of the coolant and leaving deposits, and when the silicate falls out of the coolant it forms the green goo which affects coolant flow and heat transfer. Although it's true that the new extended life coolants today (i.e. dexcool) do last longer than conventional green coolant, the key word is "longer". They do deplete. So to say you "never" need to do a coolant flush or a coolant change, you are incorrect.
And the bad thing about coolant related problems is they usually are catastophic. Once in a while the radiator or heater core will clog and by just replacing them you can get by. But when a head gasket (metal) fails or a water jacket corrodes through or blocks up due to corrosion or electrolysis, or if you have cavitation in a diesel motor (where holes are pitted into the cylinder liner on the water jacket side and coolant enters the cylinder) you usually end up junking the motor or doing a complete rebuild. Cavitition is a big thing with older diesel engines and we have to routinely add coolant additives to maintain nitrite levels to protect cylinder liners from cavitation and the whole system from corrosion in general.

 

[unDummy]

Additives, whats wrong with additives!
I've been running straight additives for years with no fluids. What we don't need is ATF/Coolant/water/PSfluid/motor oil/gearoil/brakefluid.......
A little bit of this, a little bit of that.....all we need are additives

As a former ASE transmission builder, flushes aren't needed. Frequent partial pan drain/refills(like every 10k miles or yearly) would put us out of business. Most flushing machines only get 85-95% of the ATF (depends on techs competence). Don't believe the BS that an ATF flush removes 100%. It doesn't!
Certain ATF additives can be beneficial. The only one I can recommend is lubegard.

I also believe in yearly coolant/radiator drain/refills. It sure beats chemical flushes that harm seals/bearings/houses/gaskets etc. And since what you remove is 50:50, all you do is top off with 50:50. This prevents adding pure water which most backyard/newbie mechanics don't consider when adding coolant. Most cars are running too lean on antifreeze because of water flushes. Remember to take into consideration block water capacity when calculating antifreeze/water ratio after a flush.
A simple radiator drain/refill every year will help most people forget what it is like to replace radiators/heater cores and water pumps.
Redline water wetter(and its competitors) works. Distilled/deionized H20 is a must. Wallyworld sells it for $1 for almost 2 gallons. Why skimp?
5year/150k mile antifreeze maintenance would be acceptable if filtration and coolant condition testing is preformed. Since there is no filtration and a bottle of antifreeze/water is $8, draw your own conclusion on what I think about Dexcool.

Engine oil flushes are a waste of money. Diesel/kerosene/biodiesel/biosolvents are cheaper and usually the same thing. Just read the specs on your engine flush. They(flush product) will do everything to hide the actual indegredients with chemical/technical mumbo jumbo!
Regular oil/filter changes with quality oil will prevent the need for a flush.
2nd owner vehicles with unknown maintenance may also benefit from an engine flush.
Regularly maintained vehicles should never need a flush. If it does, switch brands of oil and adjust maintenance interval.

Magnets work. Gearboxes(both manual/automatic/rear&front ends) use magnets as filtration. Adding a magnetic $5 drainplug allows you to make mechanical judgement calls since filter autopsies reveal almost nothing. Also, filter magnets(disassembled fishtank aquarium glass scraper) could be used. Don't get screwed for those super duper $30+ magnets.

Oxygen sensors degrade with time. Rust/heat kills them. Replace every 100k regardless. Waiting for an 02 sensor error code is like waiting for the oil pressure idiot light before topping off oil. Only idiots wait for idiot lights.

If your car has excessive blowby, intake cleaning might be beneficial. Some cars have more buildup than others. Change PCV valve every now and then.
Most cars with regular maintenance that are in a good state of tune do not need intake cleaning. Fuel/oil quality is also something to consider.

Fuel injector additives aren't needed.
Fuel injector cleaners, topend cleaners, intake valve cleaners...... with each oil change prevents clogged injectors and poor spray pattern. Professional FI/topend/valve cleaning can and has restored lost performance, improved MPG and reduced emissions.
Regular fuel filter changes will also benefit fuel system.
FI cleaner ingredients are right up there with engine flushes.

Time to make more homemade FI cleaner & engine flush for $.25 a bottle. Don't tell anyone that I'm using biosolvents!

 

[Drew99GT]

That was an excellent point about coolent mixture and shadetree mechanics. I still like to jam a hose in the radiator and remove both the block drain plug and the radiator drain plug and let her rip with the motor idling to fully flush all the crud out, then I just take the total system capacity, divide by 2 and add that much new coolent, then top off with water. That only works though if you know that there is only water left in the recesses of the block. For just draining and refilling, which will only remove about 30-40% of your total coolent, you have to add coolent premized and 50/50 with water. If you just drain and refill, and you don't drain the block as well, it's basically a waste of time.

 

[metroplex]

so far we've kept 1 car for 23+ years.

Another car that was kept for 14+ years was stolen, but was purchased new like the first car.

The 2nd oldest car we have is only 3 years old.

I can tell you that proper maintenance includes:

Coolant flush
Engine oil flush
Oxygen sensor replacement

I would do oil flushes infrequently - meaning maybe once every 5 years or so.

With coolant, my new regime calls for 6 month coolant drain/refill intervals with flushes every year (just using a product + water to flush it out).

For the O2 sensor - I'd replace it whenever it started to get lazy. Either replace it or use a propane torch to clean it.

I don't believe in the other stuff you mentioned, so I agree with you except for the 3 I listed above.

 

[S2000driver]

quote:

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Originally posted by metroplex:

I can tell you that proper maintenance includes:

Coolant flush
Engine oil flush
Oxygen sensor replacement

I would do oil flushes infrequently - meaning maybe once every 5 years or so.

With coolant, my new regime calls for 6 month coolant drain/refill intervals with flushes every year (just using a product + water to flush it out).

---

After reading you posts about you Ford cooling system, I would have to agree with you that your cars should get a coolant flush. Especially since you might have little galvanic cells causing corrosion in your heater core and radiator. Probably in places where the main flow of fluid doesn't hit.

I've been paying attention to a lot of posts here over the past few weeks. It makes me shake my head to find how poorly domestic makes hold up.

I guess I'll have to retract my statement. Evidently not all cars have good quality because the are made of recent date.

 

[bubba]

prob. depends on how the vehicle is used, both of my cars are comuters that get driven aprox. 20k a yr on the highway,other than oil and filter changes at 7k i dont chang any other fluids, i trade them in at 100k havent had any probs. my toyota pickup gets driven about 7k a yr , short trips pulling my fishing boat, and hauling stuf around the house, it gets oil chang at 3k and i wil change the trans fluid, and flush the rad. at 30k 60k and 90k. but iam hoping it will last 14 yrs til i retire. where as both cars will be replaced 2 more times b-4 then.

 

[Malibu]

Undummy, it was almost scary reading what you wrote as I have come to exactly the same conclusions about auto maintainance and care.
Frequent partial changes of auto trans fluid, coolant, power steering and brake fluid using OEM replacement fluids when possible ensures decades of trouble free service from these components.

 

[Malibu]

S2000driver, I agree wth your position that fuel and oil additives are unnecessary in a properly maintained modern car, regardless of time or mileage accumulated. I've seen a 415,000 mile engine that looked brand new inside just from using Mobil 1. And I've seen dino engines that also looked new at 260K except for the normal varnish discoloring which does not hurt anything.

I agree with undummy about Oxygen sensor replacement, however. This sensor is a critical part that gets lazy over time and as it gets lazy power goes down and fuel consumption goes up. As fuel consumption rises, the emmission control devices must cope with an increased load of unburned hydrocarbons. This load ends up clogging EGR valves sooner and plugging up catalytic converters sooner. Clogged and carboned up emmission control devices result in further deterioration of power and fuel economy. It's a vicious circle that can be prevented from ever starting by replacing the oxygen sensor at around 100,000 miles, BEFORE the check engine light comes on. A new sensor at 100K
will also instant increase fuel economy 1-2 MPG and this increase will end up covering the cost of the new sensor after around 20,000 miles of driving.

 

[S2000driver]

My post did what I intended it to do, present a debate that gets to the root of the matter for these different systems.

Malibu, I agree that replacing an oxygen sensor is beneficial.

I think it's a good idea to look in the emissions warranty supplement to the owner's manual to find out how long the OEM oxygen sensor is warranted for by law. I would suggest making that your replacement interval.

Unless the car has run a long time unhealthy, and the O2 sensor has been at the receiving end of the abuse... then it might be a good idea to go ahead and swap it.

If the car doesn't run any better after changing the sensor, don't sweat it. Keep the OEM part, then when your car runs badly for some reason down the road you can troubleshoot the sensor by putting the known-good one back in.

 

[metroplex]

S2000Driver: don't take this the wrong way but I wouldn't use an Import for any use other than as a beater in the winter or for the city. They're too small, Wrong Wheel Drive, but they get good gas mileage. I'd only use one for commuting long distances or parking in bad neighborhoods. Too many funky proprietary systems - Honda only anti-freeze, Honda only windshield wiper fluid, Honda only air freshner, etc...
I chose to stick with Fords because they use the same parts down the line for their modular motor equipped vehicles.
I just need 1 oil filter model for the E-250 and Crown VIc. 1 fuel filter model, same engine oil, same anti-freeze, same transmission fluid, same tranny filter, same tranny gasket, etc... Makes life simple in some ways. I can get all this stuff OTC - no need to go back to the stealership or order parts from overseas or wait for back orders. In fact, Wal-Mart carries the majority of what I need!

My 81 T-bird's cooling system has held up very well in the past 23+ years. The Vic's cooling system is new to me - aluminum radiator w/ aluminum heads. It's just a matter of finding the right anti-freeze to use and the right maintenance interval.

My regime of 6 months is used only to constantly follow up on the system. Once I sorted it out, its back to 1 year intervals. Cheap insurance against possible failures.

 

[Malibu]

metroplex, it's all a matter of priorities. Many import owners expect a level of vehicle reliability and durability that far surpasses any American make. The time proven method of achieving this goal is to maintain the import using OEM parts, fluids and filters. Nowadays this task is much easier since an import owner can place his parts orders online with a discount dealer and get the parts shipped to his doorstep for a 30% discount. So even an owner in some remote place like Cut Bank, Montana can get OEM parts, filters and fluids for a reasonable cost.

Now lots of other import owners with lower expectations of reliability and durability can get by using Walmart fluids and filters too. They just need to understand what they are sacrificing. Alot of them don't understand this. So if their Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla is not alot more reliable or durable than a Cavalier or Escort, when maintained with Walmart fluids and filters, they wrongly blame the car instead of themselves.
Such owners should have probably purchased as Cavalier or Escort to begin with.

 

[S2000driver]

For the new S2000 I bought, here is the proprietary fluids required:

Type-II Honda Antifreeze (first change at 10 years, then every 5 years afterwards)

MTF gear oil. (change interval at 120,000 miles or 60,000 miles severe)

HD DOT-3 Brake fluid. However, any good brand HD DOT-3 is probably acceptable.

You cannot have coolant shipped, but everything else is available from online discounters via standard shipping. You have up to 10 years to stop at a Honda dealership and get the MTF and Coolant, I think everybody can handle that. Not buying an import because of proprietary fluids is pretty silly when you consider the service interval.

As for engine and differential oils, you are on your own to pick your favorite 10W30 and xxW90 GL-5 respectively.

Note: This car has pure electronic power steering, no fluid is required. But on other Honda products, the PS fluid is proprietary, although there are now other makers who provide PS fluid that are supposed to be equivalent chemistry. However, you only have to add PS fluid, you never change it under normal use.

Finally, I have three Hondas, one is front wheel drive, one is rear wheel drive, and one is all wheel drive.

 

[Malibu]

59 Vetteman, Toyota has never claimed that "genuine Toyota motor oil" was the original factory fill, but it does in regard to genuine Toyota antifreeze and genuine Toyota brake fluid. So while its true I buy my motor oil at Walmart, I'll never get my antifreeze or brake & clutch fluid there. Or my oil, air and gas filters. And if I had a new Camry, I'd be using only genuine Toyota Type T-IV automatic transmission fluid.

Also, if I bought a new Toyota I would probably use genuine Toyota motor oil since it's only $1.39 a quart at discount dealers
and Toyota claims it's specially formulated for Toyota engines.

Since I am already using Mobil 1, in my existing Toyotas I cannot go back to a dino oil (such as genuine Toyota motor oil) because the Toyota engineers strongly advise against switching back and forth between dino and synthetic. So I don't see where I am contradicting myself.

I have also admitted using Red Line MT-90 in my Toyota manual transmissions. But here again Toyota has never claimed gear oil X was the original factory fill. Toyota just advises to use a GL-4 or GL-5 75W-90 gear oil in the manual tranny. That's what RedLine MT-90 is.

For the power steering systems, even the 2003 models, Toyota advises to use a Dexron III ATF fluid. So yes a Walmart Dexron III ATF fluid would work in the PS system. But I would never use any other products at Walmart labeled "power steering fluid" because such fluids are not Dexron III ATF fluids.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

 

[Drew99GT]

Toyota motor oil designed specially for Toyotas? Does that mean if you have a Geo Prizm that you bought at a GM dealer that has an identical engine as a Corolla, you have to buy your oil from Toyota?

Come-on, that's just plain BS!

 

[Malibu]

Drew99GT, for the past 19 years the Chevy Nova / Geo Prism has been assembled in Fremont, Calif. alongside the Toyota Corolla. The drivetrain of the Chevy Nova / Geo Prism is 100% Toyota Corolla. Therefore savvy Chevy Nova / Geo Prism owners have learned to buy their parts, filters and fluids from Toyota dealers because the prices are much lower than can be found at Chevy dealers. Indeed, this is exactly how thousands of formerly loyal Chevy owners have inadvertently become introduced to the awesome reliability and durability of a Toyota as compared to any Chevy and how inexpensive OEM Toyota parts are compared to OEM Chevy parts. Here in California and at online Toyota dealerships, genuine Toyota motor oil sells for a mere $1.39 a quart.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
Toyota motor oil designed specially for Toyotas? Does that mean if you have a Geo Prizm that you bought at a GM dealer that has an identical engine as a Corolla, you have to buy your oil from Toyota?

Come-on, that's just plain BS!

---

You know what's funny Drew,... I have a whole group of toyota mechanics here in atlantic beach that has never used the toyota oil. Fact is, they were using castrol, but switched all their fluids to schaeffers. Get a call about 1 every 3-4 months for more oil. That should tell you something about the toyota oil but IMO doesnt' really amount to a hill of beans. Toyota requires the dealerships to by x amount of chemicals a year from them, including the oil. This is a requirement for dealerships so these items are on hand as part of inventory. Since I do sell fuel additive(neutra 131) to them, I have come to learn the reasons behind their buying. It's not a matter of it being better or loyaty as just about every customer uses the bulk tank oil which is not toyota oil. They(local dealer) has 4-5 bays setup doing oil changes and I have spent many days in the shop during the sludge issue problem, and during that time, never once seen a bottle of toyota oil brought out from the parts dept. They just plug in some codes on a special oil gun and out shoots the castrol.

 

[Bio-T]

Malibu,

Can I get those foreign parts shipped to Toad Suck, Arkansas?

You contradict yourself in many posts. Factory fluids, and not from Wal Mart. Fancy where you buy your Mobil I engine oil that you use in your Toyota? I hope not from the Dealer just so you can use Dealer Bought fluids. Come on, smell the roses.

 

[cryptokid]

s2000, i agree with you completely. as you see a good running modern car needs no such things as fi cleaners or additives when maintined correctly. "when maintained correctly" is the key words though.

malibu, it might shock you to know i and my family make_it_a_point NOT to use oem fluids or filters. and our track record of hudreds of thousands of miles per car justifies this.

to me, oem = "good enough" for the length of the warranty.
yes, there are exceptions to this, such as delco oil filters which are fine filters by anyones standards.
but there are also staples to my rule, like honda/fram filters.

 

[Malibu]

cryptokid, could you tell us what Fram filter ID # corresponds to what Honda ID #filter? I'd like to purchase both and cut them open and post pictures of my findings.