Stellantis brands Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler and others are skipping Chicago Auto Show

[hemioiler]

At wot or part throttle? Does it boost lag right off idle or is it instant like the v8 it replaced?

I probably won't know until i drive one off-road.

I drove the first revision a few years ago in the silverado when it had less power, from what I remember it was pretty good off the line, no real lag. Where I noticed a lag was when coasting in the city and then gunning it, there was a fair amount there and part of that was probably transmission tuning, that 8 speed is complete trash. The new 8 speed is supposed to be a lot better and that is the one that is used in the new colorado and also the new silverados. Not sure what year they made the switch.

Also this engine didn't replace the v8, it was designed to replace the 4.3 v6. It completely dominates that older v6 in every way, much more powerful, better fuel economy, cheaper to build, lighter, stronger internals.

The fact that so many compare it to the 5.3 v8 shows just how good it is, that wasn't the original design/intent.

 

[TimeFlies]

Not doing well? Everything I see on the road in my area are Ram trucks and 4-door Wranglers. People might not be buying them at the inflated prices, but that goes for pretty much everything these days. My local Ford dealer has all the same F-Series on the lot that they did when I drove by a month ago.

Like your area, the most popular trucks here are Ram, and I see a lot of Jeep vehicles to.
Ford is the 2nd most popular truck brand around here.
A few chevys, barely any Toyota or Nissan.
Head up the bush roads like I do every day, and it is almost entirely all Ram and Ford. Chevy is maybe 1% of the pickups, and imports are so rare I may see 1 a month in the bush. Bush trucks live a hard life, so they can either take the daily beating, or not.

 

[TimeFlies]

In Canada, Ram pickup truck sales are up 11% in 2023, over 2022.

 

[SC Maintenance]

The legacy 3 lots around here are loaded to the gills.

However you need to be a little careful with the numbers for all these companies - since the market is such a mess. I think I read Ford was up 7%, but still less units than 2020, which was only like 80% of 2019.

Stellantis was down 1% in unit terms, but they I think they were also down the year before. They are kind of sucking TBH. Globally I don't think there doing well either.

GM is almost back to 2020 levels, so maybe there the cleanest dirty shirt in the drawer.

Still, I can't imagine the days of people paying $80K for a pickup truck will last forever, and the new labor costs are about to hit when pricing power has started to evaporate. Maybe saving their pennies is a good idea.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Well the Bronco LOOKS great but, the better performance comes at a cost of complexity and expense if you keep it a long time…take a look under the hood of both….the Ecoboost in the Bronco is quite a bit more complex, so that extra power does not come with no strings attached.
In addition if you are actually going to take it off road & use it the way it is advertised bear in mind the low mounted alternator (Wranglers is way up on top) and IFS suspension; it will not flex like a live axle does. We have 3 Jeeps two have live axle front suspension & one has IFS so I am pretty familiar with this…the IFS seems to have less travel and will easily lift a wheel off the ground…

Different use cases. Jeep is running on the reputation of yesteryear and it is catching up to them. Their powerplants are a joke and there is a myriad of issues they have had YEARS to correct and have not. So, while the Jeep looks less complex it is equally as unreliable as the potential of the complexity provided by Ford.

I'll take the complexity because it typically means cutting edge and innovation.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Different use cases. Jeep is running on the reputation of yesteryear and it is catching up to them. Their powerplants are a joke and there is a myriad of issues they have had YEARS to correct and have not. So, while the Jeep looks less complex it is equally as unreliable as the potential of the complexity provided by Ford.

I'll take the complexity because it typically means cutting edge and innovation.

You could make that argument all the way back to 1946. The only reason there ever has been to buy a Jeep, is because its a Jeep. I owned one once. My family referred to it as the "Heep". I still liked it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Different use cases. Jeep is running on the reputation of yesteryear and it is catching up to them. Their powerplants are a joke and there is a myriad of issues they have had YEARS to correct and have not. So, while the Jeep looks less complex it is equally as unreliable as the potential of the complexity provided by Ford.

I'll take the complexity because it typically means cutting edge and innovation.

The setup in the 4xe is basically a milder (4 pot instead of an i6) version of what BMW is using in the X5 PHEV (xDrive45e/50e). The Pentastar is generally a pretty good engine, but they've had some stupid QC issues with it (roller followers for example, and the oil filter housing). The 392 backed by the 8HP is pretty bulletproof, albeit thirsty, and the price of that in a Wrangler is nuts.

I'm curious to see if they'll do a hybrid version with the Hurricane I6, which would be more like the X5 PHEV.

 

[CarbonSteel]

The setup in the 4xe is basically a milder (4 pot instead of an i6) version of what BMW is using in the X5 PHEV (xDrive45e/50e). The Pentastar is generally a pretty good engine, but they've had some stupid QC issues with it (roller followers for example, and the oil filter housing). The 392 backed by the 8HP is pretty bulletproof, albeit thirsty, and the price of that in a Wrangler is nuts.

I'm curious to see if they'll do a hybrid version with the Hurricane I6, which would be more like the X5 PHEV.

I seriously doubt the Wrangler will ever see the i6, but if they had even a portion of a brain, they would dump all current engines (2.0T, 3.6L, and 392) and replace them with the SO 3.0TT (2.0T and 3.6L) and HO 3.0TT (392). The standardization and cost savings alone would pay for it and Wrangler owners would be THRILLED.

The Pentastar at altitude is an absolute dog and mine had all of the usual issues starting at 50K miles. In the end, I either had a cracked head or block...a serious POS.

The 2.7L in the Bronco runs absolute circles around it in every way. Color me VERY unimpressed with Jeep.

 

[OVERKILL]

You could make that argument all the way back to 1946. The only reason there ever has been to buy a Jeep, is because its a Jeep. I owned one once. My family referred to it as the "Heep". I still liked it.

I've owned 3x SRT Grand Cherokees at this point, only got rid of the first one because it was never right after an accident. I got into the GC's because I needed something I could drive year-round that would be sporty and fun, but could also get back to the hunting camp and go through lots of snow. I also wanted it to be luxurious. You are spending a bit less than GLE or X5 money, but get a bit more power, similar levels of luxury, albeit with a bit more NVH.

 

[OVERKILL]

I seriously doubt the Wrangler will ever see the i6, but if they had even a portion of a brain, they would dump all current engines (2.0T, 3.6L, and 392) and replace them with the SO 3.0TT (2.0T and 3.6L) and HO 3.0TT (392). The standardization and cost savings alone would pay for it and Wrangler owners would be THRILLED.

Yes, I think the Hurricane would be a far better powerplant, though I expect they'd be inclined to keep the 4-pot turbo as entry level. The 392 is already replaced by the HO 3.0L in the Grand Wagoneer, and from what I've heard, it's very impressive. I should probably endeavour to try one out when I get my headlight sprayer nozzle replaced.

I'd think that if they already put the 392 in the Wrangler (which they did), that transitioning to the TT i6 would be the logical progression here, no?

I think the HO version of that engine, in the current body style GC, would be an excellent successor to the WK2 SRT.

The Pentastar at altitude is an absolute dog and mine had all of the usual issues starting at 50K miles. In the end, I either had a cracked head or block...a serious POS.

The 2.7L in the Bronco runs absolute circles around it in every way. Color me VERY unimpressed with Jeep.

Sure, but there have been plenty of examples of them racking up plenty of miles, look at @wwillson's Durango. That said, the 2.7L Ford seems to be a real winner, based on all the chatter on here and no real mention of negatives. Folks seem to be extremely happy with it.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Yes, I think the Hurricane would be a far better powerplant, though I expect they'd be inclined to keep the 4-pot turbo as entry level. The 392 is already replaced by the HO 3.0L in the Grand Wagoneer, and from what I've heard, it's very impressive. I should probably endeavour to try one out when I get my headlight sprayer nozzle replaced.

I think that engine, in the current body style GC, would be an excellent successor to the WK2 SRT.

Sure, but there have been plenty of examples of them racking up plenty of miles, look at @wwillson's Durango. That said, the 2.7L Ford seems to be a real winner, based on all the chatter on here and no real mention of negatives. Folks seem to be extremely happy with it.

It's just a very bad mismatch to install a 3.6L in a Wrangler. Very underpowered and mine was re-geared to 5.13. Add in all of the other Wrangler design abortions (aluminum steering boxes, plastic ball joint internals, thin wall crimped steering components, lack of caster angle, shorted ELD modules, failing rocker arms, failing oil coolers, lack of temperature control, poor ESS design, bubbling paint, and the list goes on) and you have a perfect recipe for someone like me to cut their losses.

Jeep has to start INNOVATING and stop running on the "good old days", the tide is starting to turn...

 

[OVERKILL]

It's just a very bad mismatch to install a 3.6L in a Wrangler. Very underpowered and mine was re-geared to 5.13. Add in all of the other Wrangler design abortions (aluminum steering boxes, plastic ball joint internals, thin wall crimped steering components, lack of caster angle, shorted ELD modules, failing rocker arms, failing oil coolers, lack of temperature control, poor ESS design, bubbling paint, and the list goes on) and you have a perfect recipe for someone like me to cut their losses.

Jeep has to start INNOVATING and stop running on the "good old days", the tide is starting to turn...

To be fair, I've never owned a Wrangler, though my wife wanted the 392 one. I've only owned WK2 GC's. I also found the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer to be pretty nice, so I guess it depends on what product in their lineup we are looking at.

 

[CarbonSteel]

To be fair, I've never owned a Wrangler, though my wife wanted the 392 one. I've only owned WK2 GC's.

I have a 2021 GC L with the 3.6L and it does OK, of course, the oil cooler is a big question mark since all of them from 2018 forward have an abysmal track record.

 

[OVERKILL]

I have a 2021 GC L with the 3.6L and it does OK, of course, the oil cooler is a big question mark since all of them from 2018 forward have an abysmal track record.

I assume you went Pentastar for the fuel economy, vs the HEMI?

 

[CarbonSteel]

I assume you went Pentastar for the fuel economy, vs the HEMI?

Yes and cost. With the exception of the 2.0T all of them are based on antiquated technology. The lease is up next December so will be looking at another brand.

 

[jeepman3071]

It's just a very bad mismatch to install a 3.6L in a Wrangler. Very underpowered and mine was re-geared to 5.13. Add in all of the other Wrangler design abortions (aluminum steering boxes, plastic ball joint internals, thin wall crimped steering components, lack of caster angle, shorted ELD modules, failing rocker arms, failing oil coolers, lack of temperature control, poor ESS design, bubbling paint, and the list goes on) and you have a perfect recipe for someone like me to cut their losses.

Jeep has to start INNOVATING and stop running on the "good old days", the tide is starting to turn...

I agree. I drove a few newer Wranglers when my dad was looking for a replacement for his 2013 Grand Cherokee. They didn't seem any better on-road than my '98 Sahara. At least not enough to justify the insane price for them. Granted, my Jeep is modified quite a bit with stiffer swaybars, Fox shocks, H&R 1.5" springs, heavier duty steering, and upgraded brakes, so it probably drives much better than most TJ Wranglers, but I was surprised how "meh" the new JL Wrangler was. For all the hype I heard from JK owners about the 3.6 it has no low-end torque compared to my 4.0L. Sure, the 3.6 would win in a 0-60 or drag race, but that's hardly the power band people need in a Jeep.

The 3.6L also seemed pretty gutless in the Grand Cherokee. My dad replaced his 2013 GC 5.7L with a 2020 GC 5.7L. The newer Grand Cherokee drives noticeably better with the ZF8, but it needs the V8 IMO.

 

[jeepman3071]

I've owned 3x SRT Grand Cherokees at this point, only got rid of the first one because it was never right after an accident. I got into the GC's because I needed something I could drive year-round that would be sporty and fun, but could also get back to the hunting camp and go through lots of snow. I also wanted it to be luxurious. You are spending a bit less than GLE or X5 money, but get a bit more power, similar levels of luxury, albeit with a bit more NVH.

I think the Grand Cherokees are really nice, my dad is on his second WK2 Trailhawk 5.7L. With that said, they are laughably overconfident in their pricing versus the other luxury brands. My father bought his latest 2020 GC used back in 2022 with 30k miles and it was $40k, which is a decent deal. The new ones they wanted $65k+ for base laredos with the 3.6L. The Grand Wagoneer is a nice vehicle, but they had one for $117K in the showroom. People spending that kind of money are looking at BMW X5, X7 and the Mercedes and Audi equivalents, not a dolled up Grand Cherokee.

 

[CarbonSteel]

I agree. I drove a few newer Wranglers when my dad was looking for a replacement for his 2013 Grand Cherokee. They didn't seem any better on-road than my '98 Sahara. At least not enough to justify the insane price for them. Granted, my Jeep is modified quite a bit with stiffer swaybars, Fox shocks, H&R 1.5" springs, heavier duty steering, and upgraded brakes, so it probably drives much better than most TJ Wranglers, but I was surprised how "meh" the new JL Wrangler was. For all the hype I heard from JK owners about the 3.6 it has no low-end torque compared to my 4.0L. Sure, the 3.6 would win in a 0-60 or drag race, but that's hardly the power band people need in a Jeep.

The 3.6L also seemed pretty gutless in the Grand Cherokee. My dad replaced his 2013 GC 5.7L with a 2020 GC 5.7L. The newer Grand Cherokee drives noticeably better with the ZF8, but it needs the V8 IMO.

The problem is that when FCA redesigned the 3.6L in 2017 and raised the compression ratio to 11:1, they did jack-all to use it. It was the same ECM tune running 87 octane. Really? Why not turbocharge it instead? My JL was heavily modified and was very capable, but the weak link was the engine. Supercharging is out there for it, but you have to be REALLY careful--it is already a static 11:1 so you can/will overpressure the cylinders.

Aside from the thousands I spent removing all of the stock garbage suspension and re-gearing it twice, I was willing to overlook that, but at 50K the plastic oil cooler starting leaking and I changed it at 70K. I changed it because I also noticed potassium rising in the UOAs and so I assumed that was part of the leaking. It was not--even after changing the oil cooler and running a few short OCIs, the potassium continued to rise and therefore it was either a partially blown head gasket or a cracked head/block. I suspect the latter and at that point, I cut my losses. I could have swapped in a hemi, but jeez man, I should not have to add a 5.7L or a 6.2L to get decent power. FCA is FAR BEHIND in engine design and according to the last epiphany they released, the 3.6L is the stalwart of the line and will remain.

Jeep sales have been declining and I would opine they will continue to do so. Too many quality issues for too much cost with too little innovation. Hard pass for me...

 

[javacontour]

Well, that's the headline from the Chicago Tribune.

Can't say that I blame them. I have no huge desire to go see it anymore either.

Stellantis brands Jeep, Dodge, Chrysler and others are skipping Chicago Auto Show

The car show, which considers itself the nation’s largest, is trying to pull together a last-minute arrangement with local dealerships to still exhibit some of the brands’ vehicles.

chicago.suntimes.com

After oilBabe and I did the show in Detroit in 2017, it's hard to visit any others. The local shows pale in comparison.

Perhaps Paris is next on our list, for a more global experience.

 

[OVERKILL]

People spending that kind of money are looking at BMW X5, X7 and the Mercedes and Audi equivalents, not a dolled up Grand Cherokee.

My SRT stickered for $94K, I paid in the mid 70's for it, thanks to my buddy owning the dealership. But I was absolutely cross-shopping it with the X5 and GLE. Audi wasn't on my radar due to the fiasco with my e-tron, but had that not occurred, the Q5 would have been on there as well.