Spark Plug Basic Knowledge (Denso)

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Originally Posted By: NMBurb02
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
... it shows that sparks are generated at the "edge" of the electrode and not the center; that's why fresh plugs with sharp edges gives more "performance".

This is a good reason to go with platinum tipped plugs even if it's only one electrode. Small/sharp area that doesn't wear.

If you want a small sharp area that doesn't wear, you want iridiums. Both cars in my signature came with iridium plugs and the manual doesn't call for replacement until 100k miles due to their resistance to erosion. I recently put new plugs in the GP and most of the plugs looked good, despite it appearing that they were all original and had therefore been in the engine for more than 131k miles (bought at 131k). The only reason I found out that they needed to be replaced and were most likely the originals is that I got a misfire code.
Iridium may wear better than platinum, and might be a good application for a car with a bleep of a rear cylinder bank access, but they cost more and the car makers use them for "long life" purposes (and to meet certain emissions requirements for service life,) not because they work any better. In a car where it's easy to get to the plugs, and you know how to do it yourself, a single electrode platinum is OK. Plus, taking the plugs OUT once and a while means they are less likely to be frozen in when you DO need to change them.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
NMBurb02 said:
If you want a small sharp area that doesn't wear, you want iridiums.

The difference between iridium and platinum is very small but both are significantly better than the standard plug. You will find that iridium is usually priced significantly higher and this is usually only a single tip application. Dual-platinum should be significantly better than iridium but applications that would benefit are very rare I think.

What you'll also find is that the ceramic insulator gets layered with deposits that eventually will affect ignition performance. This can take a long while in a clean burning engine.

I find that the best value (by far) is a single-tipped platinum and I'd change those out every 2-4 years to keep the insulator and threads fresh. This will vary by application as I've found some OEM standard plugs that are $20 to $30 without a platinum option.

Quick example for one of my applications (RockAuto prices):

NGK 7133 $1.61 (std)
NGK 7084 $2.42 (plat)
NGK 3903 $6. + 1 NGK usually lists at least THREE choices for Toyota engines, including a single electrode platinum AND a dual electrode iridium. I like the single electrode platinums so much I use them in my BMW bike and my Honda lawn mower.
 
My brothers 2010 Hemi Ram V8 has 2 plugs/cyl = 16 plugs and they have a pretty short life too @ 30K miles....ouch. Luckily they are copper I think..
 
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I believe these multiple ground electrode designs shroud the spark. I use single ground NGK platinums in my Toyota products as listed in the NGK application book for the car.

I'm in the same camp. Will never use a Bosch +2 or +4 electrode plug after I was stranded by a set that was a month old. Not only does it shroud the flame-kernel but the extra surface area can hold condensation (my situation).

I don't buy plugs for life, I buy them for performance. NGK EGP and nothing else so far. Best bang and best buck.
 
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
My brothers 2010 Hemi Ram V8 has 2 plugs/cyl = 16 plugs and they have a pretty short life too @ 30K miles....ouch. Luckily they are copper I think..


Tell your bro he can use almost any plug in his Hemi. They run fine.

The 6.1 with virtually identical ignition uses NGK Iridiums.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: wirelessF
There's a 2010 Toyota Yaris with 200,000mi on it ...

How is that possible?
shocked.gif


I would think the plugs should be easy enough to get out as they're not even 4yrs old.


Patrol car.

Keeping this thread bumped, will be interesting to see on Saturday if my potato can take good pics.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Waste spark ignitions need dual precious metal tips.
Single tips would be a big mistake.


Yet early model 5.7 Chryslers used waste spark and cheapo Champions. It's purely a bean counter thing.

Plus it's a great excuse to sucker you into the stealership for a 300 dollar plug change!
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Waste spark ignitions need dual precious metal tips.
Single tips would be a big mistake.
I guess my Toyotas are 75,000 mile mistakes, then. SIngle tip platinum. I pulled a set at 35K to check and the gap was out to about .050. Gave the ground electrode a litle tap back down to .044 and put them back in.
 
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But are your Toyotas COP? That's not wasted spark. Wasted spark uses one coil for two cylinders and one of the cylinders will fire and wear from the ground electrode. That's why they need double platinum or iridium.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That's why they need double platinum or iridium.

Double-tipped is not required for this application but it does help a bit in the wear department and maybe in the voltage requirement as well. Most spark systems have >plenty< of energy to jump the extra gap especially since it's not under compression.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I pulled a set at 35K to check and the gap was out to about .050. Gave the ground electrode a litle tap back down to .044 and put them back in.

That extra 0.006 was a slight timing & burn boost and you threw it away!
cry.gif


Oh well, sure it runs just as good either way.
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
That's why they need double platinum or iridium.

Double-tipped is not required for this application but it does help a bit in the wear department and maybe in the voltage requirement as well. Most spark systems have >plenty< of energy to jump the extra gap especially since it's not under compression.


Double tipped are non required on non-wasted spark ignition but double tipped are required on wasted spark ignition systems if you want to prevent half of the plugs' ground electrodes from wearing at an excellerated rate to the others.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Waste spark ignitions need dual precious metal tips.
Single tips would be a big mistake.
I guess my Toyotas are 75,000 mile mistakes, then. SIngle tip platinum. I pulled a set at 35K to check and the gap was out to about .050. Gave the ground electrode a litle tap back down to .044 and put them back in.


When the spark fires the 'wrong' way, the non precious metal tip will wear fast or faster. It is an unavoidable physical fact,and people should be WARNED against this poor procedure.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
When the spark fires the 'wrong' way, the non precious metal tip will wear fast or faster.

If the OE plug is a dual-tip type then I'd suggest sticking with that type unless it's cost is extreme. A single-tip plug should work fine though and is likely a lower-cost option in the end (if you're doing the work yourself). You could also swap the plugs around to even the wear.

After 2-4 years of wear on an NGK EPG I see very minor wear but they get changed anyway to keep the insulators clean and the threads fresh. It's also good to read the plugs and verify that everything's working OK. If I was spending triple (or more) on the plugs I'd have a hard time justifying changing them out so soon. Every application is different.
 
GM started using waste-spark DIS in 1984.... they didn't start using/recommending platinum plugs until about 1995, and even then, it was only certain applications.

with waste-spark, i've gotten almost 120K miles out of a set of copper plugs, granted by that point, they were all worn to death and the change in plugs was a noticable difference in how the engine acted, but they kept going for that long.

i've tried single-platinum in the same engine, instantly did not like it at all, the MAP sensor was making a sawtooth voltage signal from the misfire it was producing at idle, changed back to copper and it was fine again. never bothered to spend the money on double/iridiums.
 
Originally Posted By: RobertISaar
GM started using waste-spark DIS in 1984.... they didn't start using/recommending platinum plugs until about 1995, and even then, it was only certain applications.

Some benefits of using a small, durable electrode is that you can fire a larger gap, ignite a leaner mixture and ignite under higher pressures. So waste-spark or not there's many reasons to to require the better plugs in newer engine systems.
 
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Originally Posted By: RobertISaar
i've tried single-platinum in the same engine, instantly did not like it at all, the MAP sensor was making a sawtooth voltage signal from the misfire it was producing at idle, changed back to copper and it was fine again. never bothered to spend the money on double/iridiums.

Do you have any details on these two plugs? Make/model?

My guess is that's it's not to do with the platinum tip but perhaps the geometry of the design or some other factor.

I've used NKG EGP (single platinum) plugs in countless applications and have always had positive experience. Same with NGK wire-sets.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: RobertISaar
GM started using waste-spark DIS in 1984.... they didn't start using/recommending platinum plugs until about 1995, and even then, it was only certain applications.

Some benefits of using a small, durable electrode is that you can fire a larger gap, ignite a leaner mixture and ignite under higher pressures. So waste-spark or not there's many reasons to to require the better plugs in newer engine systems.


i'm not arguing that there's no benefit, in fact, i've actually sharpened the electrodes on cheap plugs in an attempt to exploit it. whether or not i was successful, i don't know.
 
Originally Posted By: martinq

Do you have any details on these two plugs? Make/model?

My guess is that's it's not to do with the platinum tip but perhaps the geometry of the design or some other factor.

I've used NKG EGP (single platinum) plugs in countless applications and have always had positive experience. Same with NGK wire-sets.


IIRC, Autolite 5245 copper vs Autolite 5245 platinums(either way, one was a platinum version of the other). [censored], maybe they were double platinums, i got rid of them shortly after. the plugs that came before them(and lasted half of the life of the vehicle) were the ACDelcos installed by GM. bought and installed the platinums(along with new wires), instant misfire. pulled the platinums, installed copper version with the same new wires, ran noticably better.

it's POSSIBLE that i just had a bad plug or two in the set, but i have no way of knowing anymore.
 
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