Small Particle MoS2 Settling Time

[Tempest]

Quote:
Some of us have had the desire to use MOS2 in seldom-used cars as a way to ensure that there is some level of surface protection at startup after sitting, etc.

ZDDP reacts with the base metal and will be present under such conditions.

I would use a high ZDDP oil to maximize the formation of the AW pads.

 

[Mystic]

Very nice job JHZR2. This is how I like bobistheoilguy.com.

 

[dennishiip]

Real world experience using LM MOS2. I get better gas mileage (2.5 mpg) and a smoother running engine in a 200K mile car that sometimes sits for weeks unused.

 

[Nebroch]

Previous Mos2-additive brand that I used quided to add it only to warm engine and drive around for a while after that. I guess they were somewhat worried about settling and agglomerating.

For some reason Liqui Moly isn't worried about that, they don't give any instructions how to apply, maybe they have some chemical magic in their product..

 

[Trav]

Thanks for doing the work and posting this JHZR2.
I haven't trusted MoS2 after what i saw in the Pontiac, now it appears validated. I am not comfortable using a solid lube in the oil regardless of who makes it.
The experiences with it are more negative than positive. I fired butt dyno years ago, he never worked right, always went for the placebo effect and was unreliable.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Some of us have had the desire to use MOS2 in seldom-used cars as a way to ensure that there is some level of surface protection at startup after sitting, etc. However there are concerns with what the settling and coming out of solution time may be.

Clumping issue aside, what would be the downside of settling? I understand that you wouldn't "get the benefit" or at least get as much benefit from MoS2 that has settled in the very bottom of a deep sump. Normal oil flow, vibration, etc is going to cause some 'settled' MoS2 to get back in circulation. MoS2 that has attached to a bearing or sliding surface isn't going to detach. MoS2 that's on a surface in the oil gallery isn't going anywhere.

But, some larger particles of MoS2 might permanently stay in the bottom (permanent, at least until you drain the oil). Is that likely to cause any harm or other problems? Or just waste the MoS2?

 

[dave5358]

In a much earlier thread, Trav directed readers to a 1965 patent issued to [ultimately] Exxon for a liquifying process involving MoS2.

If you go down the very bottom of the patent application link, you will see another 1961 patent in the name of Molykote Produktions Gmbh, a German branch of Alpha Molykote, Stamford CT. FWIW, Alpha-Molykote was bought out by Dow Corning when the original owner Alfred Sonntag became too old or ill to continue. Alpha-Molykote became the basis of Dow-Corning's whole 'Molykote' product line.

If you follow the link in that patent, you will see another patent in the name of Alpha Molykote Corporation - they were researching this back in the 1950's.

According to Wikipedia, Liqui Moly GmbH, Ulm Germany was formed in 1957 because they, too, had a patent based on a process to produce liquified Molybdenum Disulfide.

Here's is a bit of non-technical history about Molykote, MoS2 and Alfred Sonntag.

---

Question: Were all of the above efforts simply making finer and finer particles, or did they have some other processes to deal with settling?

Did all this research stop in the late 1960's?

 

[dennishiip]

A primary concern that I had about LM MOS2 is this very question of settling out. I reasoned that if I thought about it surely LM had thought about it and addressed it if need be. Seems like LM has everything to lose if settling out actually happens to any noticeable degree. This company has a good reputation and folks trust them including me.

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: JAG
Thanks for the interesting thread. This makes me want to put into a clear container some LM MoS2 additive in virgin motor oil in the recommended ratio. I've had the additive for years and it is still very gray/black even at the top of the container. So some of the particles could be much smaller than the sizes you assumed. After hearing what Edward said, I still wouldn't use the additive whether I saw any settling or not.

In the real world, I have not personally observed that the LM brand MoS2 settles out (in any realistic or reasonable time frame) or agglomerates.
Years ago I did just what JAG suggested. I mixed 1 oz of LM MoS2 with 8 oz of fresh clear motor oil in a gas jar. I left it sitting on a shelf undisturbed for over a year and did not observe any settling-out of the MoS2 during that time frame. After that, I used it in my lawnmower, which I still have now and use weekly.
I have been using it in my 1998 Camry since it was a year old. A couple of years ago I removed the oil pan and valve covers to replace leaky gaskets. I observed NO settling-out or agglomeration of MoS2 in the bottom of the oil pan or under the valve covers after 140k miles of use.
So, from personal experience I have to say "nonsense" to anyone claiming that settling-out or agglomeration occurs with L-M brand MoS2 in real world use. Whatever chemistry they are using to keep the MoS2 in suspension works.

 

[Vikas]

That is good to know! How often did you use L-M MoS2 in your Camry? What was the mileage interval between new dosage of MoS2? I presume you owned the car since new.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Years ago I did just what JAG suggested. I mixed 1 oz of LM MoS2 with 8 oz of fresh clear motor oil in a gas jar. I left it sitting on a shelf undisturbed for over a year and did not observe any settling-out of the MoS2 during that time frame. After that, I used it in my lawnmower, which I still have now and use weekly.

Sounds like a reasonable test. I've been using various brands of MoS2 for years and never noticed any settling. Per V-Dub: "Will Not Settle. Will Not Be Removed By Filter"

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
That is good to know! How often did you use L-M MoS2 in your Camry? What was the mileage interval between new dosage of MoS2? I presume you owned the car since new.

I bought the car used, 6 months old with a little over 3k miles on it. I did the first LM MoS2 treatment (a full can) at my second oil change, about 9k miles, as a good mechanic friend suggested. He reasoned that it probably wasn't a good idea to add it before the engine was broken in. I have used it at every oil change since, along with M1 oil, every 6k miles. My Camry has the well-known sludge monster 3.0L V/6 engine. I can tell you that the M1 oil did it's job because that engine had NO sludge in it when I did the oil pan and valve covers. It still runs beautifully, smooth and quiet, and only burns about 1/2 quart of oil in 6k miles. My son has the car now. We'll see how long it lasts with him taking care of it

 

[gman2304]

It looks like the Germans have been all over Mos2/moly for years...as well as several of the German car manufacturers with positive recommendations.

 

[Trav]

I hope someone duplicates your test. I know what was in my pan and i don't believe that a solid can stay in suspension in a liquid infinitum.
It may have something to do with a reaction to additives in the oil at temperature (could that be why LM no longer uses it in the full synthetic oils? Not Gp III).
Just because it didn't happen to you calling "nonsense" when it did happen to someone instead to instead of looking for an answer as to why that could have happened is a little disingenuous IMO.

I don't want to waste any more money on that stuff, i already gave the Ceratec away and threw the MoS2 in the trash.

http://www.rsc.org/suppdata/cc/c4/c4cc00425f/c4cc00425f1.pdf

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: gman2304
It looks like the Germans have been all over Mos2/moly for years...as well as several of the German car manufacturers with positive recommendations.


Thats the point they did use it and recommended it but that was decades ago when engine oil was one step above swill.
Not with a high end synthetic oil.

 

[MolaKule]

I think what Ed said was very telling.

Originally Posted By: Edward Kollin
We tried size distributions of less than 100nm to 1 micron. The larger particles settled out in low flow areas of the engines and the very small particles seemed to agglomerate into larger particles which settled out in low flow areas of the engines. We worked quite a bit on the dispersing of the primary particles with a wide variety of base oils and a great number of surfactants. Even at high loadings solid MoS2 did little. However, this work should be included as part of the prelude to the development of the oil soluble moly trimer (incredible additive) that we developed at Exxon and I got the opportunity to perform the initial engine testing.

Ed


and

Quote:
The Moly trimer provides better fuel economy retention and better wear protection than Moly DTC. It is three times the price of Moly DTC and is typically used at 50-100 ppm. I don't know yet which oils use it. I use it in specific racing applications and as a reactant to produce another additive.

Ed


The suspended or colloidal versions of powdered moly additives do settle out and conglomerate.

The soluble versions stay in solution, as would be expected.


So when you add a Moly additive, how do you know what are you getting, the colloidal version (suspended particles of powder) or the soluble version?

And how do you know how much should be added unless you have done extensive and expensive tests?

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think what Ed said was very telling.

I agree, because it sounds like Ed has actually done just the slightest bit of testing on this.

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The suspended or colloidal versions of powdered moly additives do settle out and conglomerate.

Says who? Molakule? Not according to a 'White Paper' on BITOG:

Originally Posted By: BITOG White Paper, page 1
Engineers and scientists have tried for years to use Moly in motor oils but they had been unsuccessful because they could not find a way to keep Moly in suspension. Once Moly was put into suspension it would gradually settle out. It was easy to see it come out of suspension because a black sludge would collect on the bottom of the oil containers. In engines it would settle to the bottom of the crankcase or clog oil pathways and filters.

Engineers have overcome these obstacles. They have developed a process that keeps Moly in suspension and isn't filtered out. Since that time the product has undergone extensive independent testing in labs and in the field for many years to insure that the product stands up to the rigorous needs of today's engines.

Maybe that's the kind of MoS2 that Volkswagen/Dow-Corning is selling? Or maybe Liqui-Moly GmbH? Engineers appear to have overcome these obstacles back in the 1950's and 1960's. They even received patent protection for their efforts!

But, without facts and without a shred of data to the contrary and without lifting a finger to actually test something, maybe I, Molakule, can cast just a little doubt on this, because I am fundamentally opposed to all additives, except those additives that I like:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
So when you add a Moly additive, how do you know what are you getting, the colloidal version (suspended particles of powder) or the soluble version? And how do you know how much should be added unless you have done extensive and expensive tests?

How do we know? How could we possibly know? Well, we could trust the engineers at Volkswagen or Dow-Corning. They sound like solid folks, engineers who actually test before they talk. And they get patents rewarded for their efforts. Or, we could trust the engineers at Liqui-Moly GmbH. They even test in German! And their patents are issued in German!

"How much should be added... unless you've done extensive and expensive tests"... or unless you've read the label. Both VW/Dow-Corning and Liqui-Moly GmbH provide dosage information right on the package. Molykote: "This tube contains the recommended amount for a 5-quart crankcase". L-M MoS2 Anti Friction: "Add to the engine oil at the rate of 3 - 5%"

"How do you know what are you getting..." Well, maybe because it says right on the package: Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction. That was simple.

The folks at VW/Dow-Corning are going to make you work a bit. As if there were any real question, here's a nice Brazilian ad for Molykote which spells out that it's MoS2.

And another...

It looks like the engineers solved this problem at least... 60 years ago!

---

BTW, does anyone even know of a consumer source of MoDTC or any other form of Molybdenum (other than MoS2)? You sure can't buy it on eBay or Amazon.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
So when you add a Moly additive, how do you know what are you getting, the colloidal version (suspended particles of powder) or the soluble version?


From color, powder version is dark brownish. Actually I got rather nasty feeling when pouring substance like it to the engine first time, "what the h*** I'm doing here"

As others have suggested, this appearance might be one reason why it's not popular.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
So when you add a Moly additive, how do you know what are you getting, the colloidal version (suspended particles of powder) or the soluble version?

From color, powder version is dark brownish. Actually I got rather nasty feeling when pouring substance like it to the engine first time, "what the h*** I'm doing here"

As others have suggested, this appearance might be one reason why it's not popular.

If you really have any doubts about whether you've got MoS2 or Mo[something else], just get a little bit on your hands. If it's still there after two days of washing, it was MoS2. I don't know of any consumer source for anything other than MoS2.

The marketing department trumps the science guys every time.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
BTW, does anyone even know of a consumer source of MoDTC or any other form of Molybdenum (other than MoS2)? You sure can't buy it on eBay or Amazon.

A member here called Lubeguard regarding their Bio/Tech product and was told it contains trinuclear moly.
If thats the case and i was dead set on using a moly additive that would be the one.

http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-306/LUBEGARD+BIO-TECH+Engine+Oil+Protectant

No offense to you Dave or anyone else but i cant put a solid in the oil, it does work no doubt in my mind and i used it since 1984 in dino oils in daily drivers.
I used Mobil 1 0w40 (not the new blend but the old) a true full synthetic base stock oil and i saw what i saw in the pan.
Maybe MoS2 does not play well with these oils and the LM full synthetics sold in Germany are PAO based with maybe some esters, they must be by law to be labeled that way.

I did not have any problem all those years when i used dino which includes Gp III synthetics.
Ceratec was another story, that shi.. congealed inside parts of my compressor, it needed to be flushed out 3 times. I was more than pizzed off.
Never again with that stuff.
To this day some white stuff still finds it way on to the drain plug.

I pay good money for the best oil, i had to be some sort of a nut to spend more money just to give myself these kinds of headaches.
I will use cleaners to address a problem like noisy lifters and sticking rings on a neglected engine otherwise nothing is going into my oil.

I hope you see where i am coming from. I don't care who uses what its their car and their money but i think its fair to share negative experiences as well and mine have been negative.