Small Arms Caliber Debate

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
At what distance does bullet flight efficiency trump muzzle velocity?
We are talking non expanding bullets.
Does bullet sectional density trump on target velocity?


All bullets drop from the muzzle to the ground at the same rate ... that of gravity. One factor you can never change.

Therefore, the faster the bullet the 'flatter' it will shoot out to longer ranges. Of course, the more mass the bullet has the more energy you need behind it to get that high velocity to reach effectively at long ranges. And of course more mass combined with more velocity provides more KE at the target. Bullet design for low drag also comes into play, so there are many factors involved. You can go on-line and find trajectory curves for almost any caliber out there.

 

[UltrafanUK]

A 22 is all you need for a handgun, unless the person trying to shoot you is wearing a flack jacket.

PS: I'm not anti gun and I'm not a leftie, I'm a middle of the road Royalist and Brexit fan.

The British government needs to rebuild our old Empire, as Canada, Australia, India and New Zealand would make a far better team and have one great mix of undeveloped natural resources which in combination with Indian labour would make one great empire. Pity we lost the Copper ore mining rights for Afghanistan to the Chinese, as a railway line to Kashmire (North India) would have been one great ride. Alas the new railway will run to the slightly nearer Chinese border, that's the one border not many US troops even knew about.
God save the Queen!

 

[userfriendly]

We will talk when a Stuart is on the throne laddie.
No politics allowed here, but the Scottish vote went the wrong way,
I'm sorry to say.

In the mean time, don't let the breeze get your knees up.

 

[Shannow]

UltrafanUK
Nah, the sooner Oz gets away from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha on our coins the better.

As to all you need is a .22...60 minutes did an "article" on gun violence in some US city, and a 16 year old in a shootout had a direct hit to the liver with what was identified as a CCI Stinger...continued on with the altercation for some minutes, ran away, and died.

Not quite sure what handguns have to do with the context of the thread that I started was about small arms calibres (and velocity, akin to the .303 as well, which IS NOT the same as energy...a .577 Tyranosaur would fit within your definition of an acceptable "velocity"...but it will stop an elephant)

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
We will talk when a Stuart is on the throne laddie.
No politics allowed here, but the Scottish vote went the wrong way,
I'm sorry to say.

In the mean time, don't let the breeze get your knees up.


I was a supporter of the Scottish Indepence party and even planted a few bricks back into Hadrians wall, but some twit in the Bank of England pointed out that the Scots might lose money if they went their own way and it was game over.
The oil & gas up North is not worth developing, so England would have been far better without Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Alas the Queen does not agree, so I'm now neutral.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
UltrafanUK
Nah, the sooner Oz gets away from Saxe-Coburg and Gotha on our coins the better.

As to all you need is a .22...60 minutes did an "article" on gun violence in some US city, and a 16 year old in a shootout had a direct hit to the liver with what was identified as a CCI Stinger...continued on with the altercation for some minutes, ran away, and died.

Not quite sure what handguns have to do with the context of the thread that I started was about small arms calibres (and velocity, akin to the .303 as well, which IS NOT the same as energy...a .577 Tyranosaur would fit within your definition of an acceptable "velocity"...but it will stop an elephant)


It's really the lethality and rate of fire that count in mass muder terms and that's a very complex subject. Seems to depend on the following:
1/ Velocity at impact
2/ Weight of the round
3/ Shape of the round in terms of how it results in a pressure wave upon impact with the torso
4/ Construction, in terms of how the round deforms after impact
5/ Aerodynamics
6/ Spin
No 1 is the easy one to limit, although some might argue it's already been restricted as the rounds special forces use are far more effective due to the use of expensive propellants.

The ultimate bar fight weapon I saw used in Trinidad was a gas powered belt fed 9mm salvo handgun. Luckily it was only loaded with cheap Chinese ammo, jammed after 7 rounds and didn't kill anyone. With the right 22 ammo (The weapon is a modified 9mm with a fat handle that has a belt of 22 rounds and a small gas cartridge). The owner said it was a Christmas present, but we didn't think a weapon that can fire 50 rounds in less than 3 seconds was funny. It's a salvo gun as it takes nearly 10 minutes to reload (Fiddly belt and gas cylinder threads).

 

[userfriendly]

Please wish QE2 a happy 90th, and long shall she reign.
The dear mother of my children, born in Colchester.
My grandmothers, Armstrong & McArthur, both highland lassies.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
It's really the lethality and rate of fire that count in mass muder terms and that's a very complex subject. Seems to depend on the following:
1/ Velocity at impact
2/ Weight of the round
3/ Shape of the round in terms of how it results in a pressure wave upon impact with the torso
4/ Construction, in terms of how the round deforms after impact
5/ Aerodynamics
6/ Spin


You've done some reading since the other day when it was all about velocity and the .303...

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
PS: Someone asked about what high velocity bullets are. There are different definitions and my own is the same as the UK Police. It's based on the muzzel velocity of a Lee Enfield 303 rife round. They have a main body lethality rate of 30% (Hospital within one hour etc), which is a lot less than the 90% for a
7.62 mm high velocity SLR or Paris Policemans handgun. The statistics were based on the troubles in Northern Ireland where the 7.62 SLR used by UK Army snipers was replaced by the 303 LE after bloody Sunday when one soldier in particular went nuts firing off almost all of a 20 round clip.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

It's really the lethality and rate of fire bla..bla..bla


Obviously you know how to use the internet...

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
A 22 is all you need for a handgun, unless the person trying to shoot you is wearing a flack jacket.

And this shows you have no real world experience. When I was 16 I did trapping. I carried a piece of pipe and a 22 H&R 9 round pistol. I caught a large groundhog in a trap. I didn't want to get to close to him..he was unhappy. I think I emptied the whole pistol in him and he was still trying to get at me.

Yes a 22 can kill on one shot or it might take more bullets than you have. Why am I wasting my time telling you this. You have your agenda...facts be [censored]. I have 58 years experience with firearms...You have zero.

 

[Robenstein]

You need more than a .22 for a handgun my boy. My nephew who sadly is a career criminal tried to rob someone (another criminal). That person had a Ruger 22 and shot my nephew three times, including twice in the head. My nephew is walking around fine today. He lost some vision in one eye, but other than that you would not know he took two slugs to the brain. Had that been almost any other cartridge larger and more powerful, he would not be above ground today.

The only thing worse than a 22 handgun for self defense is a 25acp, which can actually fail to even get through the skull at a moderate distance.

 

[billt460]

Robert F. Kennedy was shot 3 times in the back of the head, at close range with a .22 L.R. He lived for 26 hours after the shooting.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

It's really the lethality and rate of fire bla..bla..bla


Obviously you know how to use the internet...

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
A 22 is all you need for a handgun, unless the person trying to shoot you is wearing a flack jacket.

And this shows you have no real world experience. When I was 16 I did trapping. I carried a piece of pipe and a 22 H&R 9 round pistol. I caught a large groundhog in a trap. I didn't want to get to close to him..he was unhappy. I think I emptied the whole pistol in him and he was still trying to get at me.

Yes a 22 can kill on one shot or it might take more bullets than you have. Why am I wasting my time telling you this. You have your agenda...facts be [censored]. I have 58 years experience with firearms...You have zero.


Umm, that's funny as I was trained by the RAF as a marksman and last worked for the SAUTT in Trinidad, which in some areas is a war zone at night.

I have no idea about shooting animals, as we only shot those with 2 legs!

Back on topic:
No real info from the UK Police about the handgun that killed the MP, but it does seem to be a homemade job at present. 3 rounds were fired before a fight started with a passerby who then got stabbed, hence the shooter has been charged with muder and GBH.

The shooter spent 620 quid on various books from the National Alliance in the US for gun design plans and the witness said the gun looked like a WW1 Webbly, which is rather like the old cowboy 6 shooters at a distance.
He might well have been able to make a handgun, but the real question will be about who sold him the bullets, unless it's another Fedex job from some group in the US or Russia.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
..........the real question will be about who sold him the bullets, unless it's another Fedex job from some group in the US or Russia.


Perhaps you guys should ban Fed Ex next?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Umm, that's funny as I was trained by the RAF as a marksman


Didn't know that the RAF had snipers or infantry, or are you saying that you did MARKSMANSHIP training in the RAF, like I did in the air cadets, and a friend's son who is a diesel mechanic in the army.

The British MP has nothing to do with the topic that I started.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
You need more than a .22 for a handgun my boy. My nephew who sadly is a career criminal tried to rob someone (another criminal). That person had a Ruger 22 and shot my nephew three times, including twice in the head. My nephew is walking around fine today. He lost some vision in one eye, but other than that you would not know he took two slugs to the brain.


Another data point, my Dad point blank, with perfect placement (behind right ear) from a rifle, with hollow points survived long enough for the ambulance to arrive, and a couple hours after the machines were turned off.

Talking to cops who have been there, you can line up all of the "perfects" with a .22 and still end up alive.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

I have no idea about shooting animals, as we only shot those with 2 legs!

With 22?
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

Umm, that's funny as I was trained by the RAF as a marksman

I am a 7th degree black belt..but only on the internet.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

I have no idea about shooting animals, as we only shot those with 2 legs!

With 22?
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

Umm, that's funny as I was trained by the RAF as a marksman

I am a 7th degree black belt..but only on the internet.


Rubber bullets only!

I use a black belt to keep my trousers up!

There is no way to ask gun owners to change a weapon for a smaller caliber one, or one that fires a different type of bullet.
Some chaps I knew did use low velocity 22 rounds that had holes drilled in their points for a tiny amount of poop ([censored]), that way the chaps that got shot finished up in hospital within a few days with blood poisoning.
Low velocity soft head 22 ammo is less lethal than most, as it does not penetrate but still causes a big surface punch. Very similar to a small musket round in effect terms.

PS: Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
There is no way to ask gun owners to change a weapon for a smaller caliber one, or one that fires a different type of bullet.


Granny uses rock salt in her shotgun ... why can't everyone? A more 'friendly' low velocity round.

 

[Olas]

.458 socom is effective re stopping threats quickly and authoratatively. Softer load to limit velocity and voila!

 

[userfriendly]

I can't hit anything @ 100M in a cross-wind with a .22 LR, sub sonic or otherwise.
But according to UltrafanUK, if I manage to poke a hole in a bloke's gut, he will eventually die of toxic or septic shock if left untreated.
Too bad I won't live to see my good work, because I just got cut in half from an obsolete low velocity round nose 8X57.
Never saw it coming.