S2K 0W30 in Chevy Tahoe 5.3L - 3916 miles on oil

[Doug C]

Now I'm worried. This is the first oil sample of Amsoil S2k 0W30. I was expecting outstanding results; now I am doubting and ready to go BACK to Mobil 1. ALL COMMENTS APPRECIATED!!!

Here's the M1 and the S2K results:

................ M1 0W30 ........... S2K 0W30
Sample Date .... 14 JUL 03 ........ 20 DEC 03

Iron ............ 9 ........ 17
Chrom ............. 0 ........ 1
Lead ............. 12 ......... 17
Copper............. 27 ......... 43
Tin ............ 0 ......... 0
Aluminum ......... 4 ......... A 46

Nickel ........... 0 ......... 0
Silver............ 0 ......... 0
Silicon ........... 12 ......... 18
Boron ............. 164 ......... 57
Sodium ............ 15 ......... 7
Magnesium ......... 49 ......... 759
Calcium ........... 2626 ......... 2259
Barium ............ 0 ........ 0
Phosphorus ........ 1155 ........ 1082
Zinc .............. 1318 ........ 1341
Moly .............. 75 ........ 9
Titanium .......... 0 ........ 0
Vanadium .......... 0 ........ 0
Potassium ......... 0 ........ 0

Visc 100C ....... 10.49 ........ A 13.16

TBN ....... 8.14 ........ 8.21

NITR ............ 25.0 ........ 26.0
OXID ............ 17.0 ........ 18.0
Fuel ........... Water .......... 0 ........ 0
Glycol ......... Neg ........ Neg

Total Miles ....... 3106 ........ 3916

Vehicle Mileage .................. 37943
2001 Chevy Tahoe 4x4, 5.3L

Analysis Comments: Viscosity is out of indicated grade, resample at next regular interval. Wear metals flagged are abnormal. Resample at next regular interval.

-------------------------------------

Comments from the forum PLEASE!!! I hope it's readable. I tried to make two columns???

Cheers, Doug

[ January 08, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Doug C ]

 

[Ken4]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug C:

Aluminum ......... 4 ......... A 46

---

Wear in general has doubled but 10x jump in Al suggests lab error. To be fair to amsoil, you did sample it during the winter months. Maybe your next UOA on amsoil might show better results.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

Pistons.... SI is up there, could be the oil but could be DIRT! And add a leak on top of that and wierd wear results... Does it leak? condition?
When Lead jumps so does all wear if bearings is a problem, but it did not jump too high... maybe a spot of dirt in there caused a lot of wear.
Maybe today after I get some sleep and work, I'll think better tonight.
Miles on truck and how long using M1?
and anything different happen? anything?
Condition of motor>?

 

[Al]

There are some signs here of a coolant leak: High bearing wear, high aluminum, higher viscosity, higher iron/lead. Too bad there is no potassium value

. But the TBN is good and the other wear metals are not high so it may not be coolant.

I would really urge you to get an oil analysis with the Dyson package-not a whole of lot of money-well worth it. He will be able to tell you exactly what the problem (if any) is.

Uh-oh zero potassium-my bad. Ignore my coolant comment -robbie may be right

[ January 08, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Al ]

 

[TooSlick]

I think you have a dirt ingestion issue, since Fe, Cr and Cu are all elevated. The Cu in vortec engines is coming from the cam bearings, I suspect and most of the Fe and Cr is piston ring and cylinder/valvetrain wear ....A level of 18 ppm of silicon in only 4000 miles is really high. The dirt you are sucking in also contains a high percentage of "alumina", hence the elevated Al level in this analysis ....

The increase in viscosity to 13 Cst in only 4000 miles could simply be from fuel/water contamination - from cold weather - but the results are inconclusive at this point. This test only shows fuel < 1.0%, but you don't know if it's 0.1% or 0.9%? That would make a difference in how much thickening you get. I noted you only drove 4000 miles in 5 months, so I'd assume this truck sits around a lot and/or does very short trips, which will adversely affect the results. It would be useful to know the maintenance history and the total # of miles on the engine???

You will always see more engine wear in cold weather, but it's extremely rare to see all the wear metals go up, unless you have a contamination issue with dirt, fuel or coolant ....

If you use the truck this way and seldom drive it, the Series 3000, 5w-30 will work better than the Amsoil gas engine oils - that's what I'd recommend you use ....

Please email me your number if you'd like to talk ...

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
Cell: 256 681-3590

 

[Doug C]

Thanks for the input... sort of a virtual brainstorming session.

The truck is 3 years old (38,000 miles). Engine is fine, no leaks, no oil consumption. Mobil 1 0W30 was started from new. First change was at 230 miles. I used the Mobil 1 filter also. All subsequent changes when the GM Oil Life system indicated a change needed (~4000 miles).

Yes, mostly short trips. It's only about 10 miles to work. The oil sample in December (the abnormal one) was collected after I drove interstate about 200 miles, returned to my garage and pulled sample via the hand pump and tube accessing the oil sump via the dipstick tube into a clean virgin sample container. (and boy was it HOT!) The outside temps from July to December have not been that severe. It has only been recently that we got any snow and temps below zero.

Air filter. The Mobil 1 sample I used a K&N filter. I scrapped that filter and replaced it with the Amsoil air filter about 200 miles prior to the Mobil 1 sample in July. The Amsoil sample (abnormal) was 100% Amsoil air filter. Hmmm, on further analysis maybe I shouldn't have thrown that K&N filter away.

My gut feeling is that after looking at these numbers I should return to my Mobil1 0W30 and change per the GM Oil Life Monitor which was about every 4000 miles. Keep the Amsoil air filter or go back to paper or buy ANOTHER K&N?

What does the virtual group think?

Thanks, Doug

 

[JetForeman]

wow Doug, if I saw results like that in my engine I think I would swear off Amsoil and their air filter, but that would be jumping the gun a little and probably not being reasonable to a very good oil like Amsoil. Why not try a paper air filter and more Amsoil to see if maybe their filter may have been letting in too much dirt, I'm sure Amsoil is not impervious to having a faulty air filter every now and then...

 

[wrangler]

Doug,

Is it safe to assume the type of driving you did with the Amsoil was the same as when you were running on Mobil1. So except of the ambient temp diffs, everything else was pretty similar.

Ted, could it be some type of additive clash from the left over Mobil?

 

[Doug C]

Correct, same driving habits with both oils. Equal amount of towing, hwy and city driving.

The only change being the oil and filter and air filter being Amsoil brand.

Thanks, Doug

 

[TooSlick]

Doug,

Lets assume the Al level is a reporting error and it's really 4.6 ppm, which they would round off to 5.0 ppm. You still have elevated Fe, Cu and Pb. On reflection, the 1 ppm of Cr is probably normal - if you were to test every sample after 5000 miles, you'd probably see Cr fluctuate between 0 ppm and 1 ppm; given the accuracy of the test.

Abnormal cylinder and valvetrain wear is almost always the result of elevated dirt and/or soot levels. So I still suspect that as the cause of the high iron, although some of it could be corrosion from the cold weather, short trip driving. The best cure for that is to move south to Sedona, AZ ...

What I do in these situations is to change one variable at a time, so you can determine the root cause of the problem. At this point, I'd go back to using an AC Delco paper air filter, along with a new batch of the S2000. If the wear rates return to normal, you have solved this problem. With proper air filtation, I would expect the S2000 to generate significantly lower wear rates than the Mobil 1, 0w-30, under the same driving conditions - including ambient temps. The S2000 is considerably thicker, has a more robust add pack, and it's a bit more shear stable than the M1, 0w-30 ....

I do think there is an initial reaction between the S2000/S3000 additive chemistry and the softer bearing materials - much like you see on the first run with Redline. However, that would not explain the elevated iron wear ....The S2000 uses a fairly aggressive antiwear chemistry, which is one reason it excells on the Four Ball Wear test.

Provided you don't have an air leak, the wear rates will settle down to a very low level with continued use of the S2000 or S3000....

 

[wrangler]

It’s hard to believe that an extra 6PPM of silicon could cause all this extra wear. I would think something else is the cause.

Does the Amsoil air filter make a good fit? I had tried it once and I noticed significant cracks along the border of the filter and filter box.

 

[Pablo]

I lean towards the filter or a leak around the filter. The oil doesn't look too beat, but the Al,Fe,Pb is way high. I'm sure there is SOME cleaning of the M1 going on but here's what I would do:

a) Change to a paper filter, performance air filters for street cars are WAY overated. Unless you are drivin at WFO, it just doesn't make much difference.

b) Dump and remake the oil with a new oil filter.

 

[Doug C]

Good points one and all. The Amsoil air filter fits fine. No leaks around the edges inside the filter box.

I am really leaning toward putting Mobil 1 back in and resampling after 3000-4000 miles. If the numbers don't go back to the July 03 baseline then something else will have to change.

I know that the AL number is high, but what about the 100C viscosity being above a 30wt level (13.16)?? That's why I think I should go back to Mobil 1. I can't see that the air filter would cause the viscosity to raise significantly.

Thanks, Doug

 

[TooSlick]

The elevated viscosity is from fuel and water contamination and is related to the short trip driving in cold weather. Once the temps warm up, you won't see this type of increase. It would be a good idea to increase the engine temps in cold weather. This will cause the water and fuel to evaporate out of the oil more quickly and reduce insolubles.

So easy things to consider: (Canadians know all these tricks)

1) Install a thermostat that opens at a higher temp of say 195F
2) Run 87 or 89 octane fuel, which will burn hotter than 91/93 octane gas
3) Run the oil 0.5-1.0 qts below the max line all the time, which will increase oil temps
4) Run a 5w-40/10w-40 grade, which will increase your peak oil temps by 5F-10F; compared to a 0w-30
5) Block off part of the radiator like truckers do, to reduce cold air flow to the engine.
6) For trips of < 10 miles, lock out overdrive, so the engine warms up more quickly

7) Make that move to Sedona ...

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug C:
-*-*-*
I am really leaning toward putting Mobil 1 back in and resampling after 3000-4000 miles. If the numbers don't go back to the July 03 baseline then something else will have to change.
-*-*-*
I can't see that the air filter would cause the viscosity to raise significantly.
Thanks, Doug

---

If it were me.
I would Keep EVERYTHING the SAME.

And do a shorter OCI.

Me, maybe 2K or maybe 3K pull sample when drain and refill with same oil. Depends on how much you are willing to sink into it.

Less than 500-1500 miles is harder to judge IMO, and if you want to see BEST, a 1500 and a 3000 would be great, it's all up to you, but I think you'll see it first in the gas milage if the numbers continue to climb, I know I always have, so keep an eye there too.

In the mean time check all sources of air entering into the engine. Check for leaks again.
Go to get the car serviced for something you need, and inspect it real close.

Yes, DIRT is a big factor, and no a few ppm would not make all thest numbers, well unless there was just the right size SI to set stuck just in the right spot. I donno what the Virgin SI is on the oil, that has to be taken into consideration, but do not underestimate dirt... It is enemy number 1.

Again, I think several OCI's are necessary to decide if an oil is right for you. Don't jump the gun and blame the oil. Too many people do, and there is not any oil that will allow this type of numbers unless it is severly abused, got water, fuel, dirt, etc. in it. This car is just over being new, its got a lot of life left.

When I was having problems, everyone points to the oil... well I know better... in fact the numbers on mine are still too high, way too high on several items the others being less but elevated... but nonetheless still decent numbers so far. So, unless you have a whole history on file to compare, just relax a little and know one of the best things you can do, even if your engine is falling apart, is keep the fluids clean, I.E.-change it and change it more often until the real issues are discovered.

I always will do a short OCI or several to help flush out whatever the cause... even and more importantly when there are issues... Oil changes buy you some time, and give me peace of mind.

Again Don't change anything and do a short 2-3K drain/sample - if it were me. Then between now and then, if there is a problem someplace you may find it, it may show itself to you...
------
Now, if you can't live with that idea. Then to feel better, Go back to M1.

 

[DockHoliday]

This thread seems to contradict the "bottom line" thread.

 

[Doug C]

If the problem is dirt, then one would think that the answer would be to install a dual by-pass filter and filter the oil more efficiently.

I also think that we are looking too closely at the tempurature issue. It's not really that cold here. For example it's 5:36PM and the current outside temp is 45 degrees. Normal morning temps when I go to work are 30-45 degrees. Earlier this week it was cold, but that's isolated. Certainly not as cold and frigid as it gets in the Northeast or upper mid-West. Our moderate climate is our secret. Don't tell folks or we will have more people move here!

Thanks, Doug

 

[TooSlick]

You only put 4000 miles on the engine in five months - and your commute to work is only 10 miles. Install an accurate oil temp gauge and you'll see your oil temps take about 10 miles to stabilize. The combination of those two factors, plus the colder weather is the reason for the fuel/water contamination. Get Blackstone to test the oil the next time and you'll see the total solids level is in the 0.4%-0.6% range, which is pretty high.

Oil analysis only tells you the equilibrium fuel/moisture levels - not the total amount of contamination you have over the course of the drain interval. The # of oxidation/nitration and the viscosity increase after only 4000 miles are the keys here ....The TBN retention is actually very good, but you aren't getting the oil hot enough.

You will have this problem under these conditions, regardless of the oil you use, unless increase you average oil temps in the winter. I'd seriously consider items #2,#3 and #6 above - those will really help and you can do them for no money. If nothing else, just do #6 and lock out overdrive on the way to work. With a V-8, you are just loafing along in 4th gear and the engine oil never warms up in cold weather.

 

[Doug C]

TooSlick - Thanks!

Doug

 

[Doug C]

I was noodling around on the web and decided to check out the Mobil 1 web site. I found this in the Mobil 1 oil usage guidelines:

------

Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ provides superior protection, cleanliness and anti-wear properties compared to a conventional oil, especially if you:
· Tend to drive less than 10 miles per trip.
· Tow a trailer or carry heavy loads.
· Drive frequently in stop-and-go traffic.
· Drive in cold weather and never fully warm up your car.
· Drive in very hot weather, using the air conditioner and other accessories.
· Encounter conditions such as dust, sand or dirty air.
· Want peace-of-mind protection.
In other words, if your driving is mostly on the highway and you change your oil religiously on the manufacturer's schedule every time, you may not need Mobil 1. But if your driving is anything but "normal," Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ can make a big difference for your vehicle's engine.

---------

Hmmm, I gues that I should be using Mobil 1. This sounds like my situation.

Cheers, Doug