Russian jet shot down

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: dirtydannyd
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Remember ISIS is a product of the USA.


It's not very often I see it stated this way, but there you go.


Shhhhhh... You're not allowed to say that.



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I wonder why not? Never speak the name of those that control the game perhaps?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
If anyone is the good guy in this fight Russia is, it is actually trying to destroy the Israeli Secret Intelligence Service once and for all.

More Youtube "proof" again?

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: CKN

REALLY?

It's war dude. They try to kill you....you try to kill them. You think we are dealing with a civilized enemy or something? There are plenty of uncivilized things almost everybody did during the Second World war.


The Poles were most notorious for shooting German pilots in their parachutes.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: andrewg


During WW2, the Japanese were well known to do this. The Germans did have a few cases...but it was generally regarded as something you just didn't do as once a pilot is out of his aircraft...he is out of the fight.
I have heard that we Americans rarely did it and it was NOT an accepted practice...unless (and this is just what I recall reading) the parachutist was a German jet fighter pilot (ME-262). I don't remember why that was though....or if it was even a fact.


The Japanese showed the absolute least respect for American POW's during WW2.

My grandfather and two of my great uncles were fighter pilots. He flew a P-47 Thunderbolt, his brother a Corsair, and his other brother a Mustang. In the European theatre, most of those guys watched for parachutes because they wanted the pilot to get out of the plane and survive.

The Pacific guys had less sympathy for the Japanese, but they generally did not shoot the parachutes. Parachuting was not very common for the Japanese. They usually turned their disabled plane toward a target.

Where 262 pilots were concerned, most of them were shot to pieces trying to land their planes. Was the only time anyone could catch them for the most part.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Hate to say it or type it, but Europe had hundreds of years of war and killing, America had its own civil war. Maybe its best to remove the nukes, remove the chem/bio/etc. and let it be fought out and new lines drawn by the victors without third parties trying to profit from the region, its resources or its people. A horrid thought, but perhaps its human nature and needs to just get to that? I hate to have written that, but maybe its so, if past human history is any indicator?


Actually, it's irrelevant what sort of weapons are used, there is always somebody that profits from war. Although removing nukes and other mass damage capable weapons would reduce the risk of mass civilian casualties.

If you look at European wars, like the English/French war the Spanish wars, heck even the crusades, there was always a side that profited and oftentimes it was not a country. How do you think Rothschilds came to power. It was not through their checking accounts, they financed entire wars in Europe oftentimes financing/supplying weapons, secretly of course, to both sides of the conflict. Sounds familiar to what's happening today right? It's not by any accident, it's been going on for centuries.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: GiveMeAVowel
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Turkey is a member of NATO. Remember ISIS is a product of the USA.


Exactly....and as if US and it's allies don't invade the airspace of sovereign nations?

If anyone is the good guy in this fight Russia is, it is actually trying to destroy the Israeli Secret Intelligence Service once and for all.



How does that make Russia the good guy? Last time I check, Israel was our ally...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Grampi - the Russians have a history of shooting down airplane's in their airspace. Including civilian airliners. And without warning.

They're not in a position to complain...

For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007



Hundreds of U.S. and NATO airmen died in the Cold War just after WWII due to Soviet shoot-downs. In some ways it's ancient history, but the reckless actions of Russian military aviation have made something like this inevitable...

 

[Astro14]

Completely agree Nick. But I view military and civilian airplanes differently.

A 747 full of people is a whole lot different than an attack aircraft, or even a reconnaissance aircraft.

And the SU-15 Flagon that shot down KAL 007 had to be very close to employ weapons. It didn't have much in the way of missiles. He was in visual range.

Unforgivable.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: grampi


How does that make Russia the good guy? Last time I check, Israel was our ally...


I'm neither advocating that Russia is or isn't a good guy... But if Isis is a threat, and Russia (as opposed to the US for once) is engaging them, how is that bad?

Beyond that, forget religion, forget demographics, throw it all out the window - how does a country that spies upon us excessively count as an ally?

http://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991

 

[LoneRanger]

All Israel wants to do is live in peace, they are not expansionist. If Israel's enemies laid down arms there would be peace between Israel and it's enemies. If Israel lays down its arms it will be destroyed. All these conspiracy theories about Israel this or Israel that or the USA created ISIS, sound kind of like this:

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What bothers me the most about this incident is those rebels shooting the pilots while they were still parachuting to the ground. And if that wasn't enough, they had to destroy the helicopter carrying the troops on their way to rescue the pilots. Those rebels are a bunch of chicken chit idiots with no sense of war ethics.


A fairly simplistic thought. The Mujaheddin we supported in Afghanistan did the same thing. While I don't support the shooting of defenseless pilots, the guerrillas on the ground have the right to be outraged since Assad has been dropping crude "barrel bombs" on civilian bread lines since the start using his air force. They have the right to be [censored]. And OF COURSE they're going to try to ambush the rescue choppers.

Those "chicken chits" have been facing superior firepower and air supremacy since the start. Easy for you to say armchair tough guy...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Completely agree Nick. But I view military and civilian airplanes differently.

A 747 full of people is a whole lot different than an attack aircraft, or even a reconnaissance aircraft.

And the SU-15 Flagon that shot down KAL 007 had to be very close to employ weapons. It didn't have much in the way of missiles. He was in visual range.

Unforgivable.


Unfortunately, we've also shot down civilian airliners in the fog of war. But yes, the KAL 007 shoot-down was unforgivable in absence of a active conflict...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Turkey is a member of NATO. Remember ISIS is a product of the USA.


They were made in China, we don't make anything here anymore.

You're correct that Turkey is a member of NATO!

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Putin is not stupid, if he sent in an obsolete SU-24, then he had a very specific reaction in mind.


The SU-24 isn't obsolete when you consider the weapon load it carries. Old airframe, sure...however, it carries a broad set of weapons. High payload. Long range. High speed. The Fencer is very capable at air to ground missions. And that's what the Russian Air Force was doing: air to ground. So, frankly, it's a great choice for capability.

It's no fighter however, and so, against an F-16, it's at a considerable disadvantage when flying at medium altitude.


The SU-24 is about the same age as an F-16 or F-15.

It's still useful because it has a long range, all weather attack capability...

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: grampi


How does that make Russia the good guy? Last time I check, Israel was our ally...


I'm neither advocating that Russia is or isn't a good guy... But if Isis is a threat, and Russia (as opposed to the US for once) is engaging them, how is that bad?

Beyond that, forget religion, forget demographics, throw it all out the window - how does a country that spies upon us excessively count as an ally?

http://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991


Thats a good point. I think they do not trust us in regards to the Iran nuke deal.

 

[finmile]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Asad is what it is. A dictator. A dictator that kept peace in a country with million tribes. Same with Gaddafi in Libya. Yes, in those countries their was no democracy in a western way, but we all have to understand that this people aren't yet capable to live in a modern societies.
Asad kept Syrians out of Europe, Gaddafi did the same with sub-Saharian African. That is what matters to me.
USA government destroyed those societies in search for cheap oil. War on terrorism and bringing democracy to the middle east is a joke.
Can you count in how many military conflicts were US involved in the last 50 years? Non of on the American soil. All in the name of exporting "democracy".


Even this is a bit off topic, I agree with the above. I would add Saddam at Iraq also to the list of "a bad, but useful guy".

If these three bad boys would still rule their countries, EU wouldn't be so flooded with refugees.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
All Israel wants to do is live in peace, they are not expansionist.



If so, how come they give huge tax breaks to new and returning citizens? Do they want a zillion people on the same footprint?

 

[Trav]

Most Americans with half a brain don't trust the nuke deal.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: finmile
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Asad is what it is. A dictator. A dictator that kept peace in a country with million tribes. Same with Gaddafi in Libya. Yes, in those countries their was no democracy in a western way, but we all have to understand that this people aren't yet capable to live in a modern societies.
Asad kept Syrians out of Europe, Gaddafi did the same with sub-Saharian African. That is what matters to me.
USA government destroyed those societies in search for cheap oil. War on terrorism and bringing democracy to the middle east is a joke.
Can you count in how many military conflicts were US involved in the last 50 years? Non of on the American soil. All in the name of exporting "democracy".


Even this is a bit off topic, I agree with the above. I would add Saddam at Iraq also to the list of "a bad, but useful guy".

If these three bad boys would still rule their countries, EU wouldn't be so flooded with refugees.


I tend , in hindsight to agree.
Saddam had what we cannot form there. He had a loyal army that if there today, there would be no ISIS. Whether loyal out of fear , or other reasons, that brutal type of leadership worked on those regions of the world. The vacuum of them (Saddam/Gaddafi) being gone is not good.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: grampi


How does that make Russia the good guy? Last time I check, Israel was our ally...


I'm neither advocating that Russia is or isn't a good guy... But if Isis is a threat, and Russia (as opposed to the US for once) is engaging them, how is that bad?

Beyond that, forget religion, forget demographics, throw it all out the window - how does a country that spies upon us excessively count as an ally?

http://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991


Whether or not the people they were bombing were actually ISIS is debatable.

Russia doesn't just spy on us to this day, they still have nuclear weapons pointed at our major cities, quite possibly were responsible for yet another commercial airliner being downed, invade our territorial waters with attack and nuclear submarines, frequently engage in aggressive actions against our military, and Co Stanly test our own airspace with "mistaken" incursions by military aircraft. Israel is Dennis the Menace to Russia's Jason Vorhees by comparison. The Russian ideology for the past 100 years has been to make a strong Russia by any means necessary. The US has been the only thing stopping them from consuming all of Europe for a long time.