That leaves me wondering what could be in those Caterpillar FD-1 lubricants.
Reduced Zinc and its Implications
- Thread starter MolaKule
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MolaKule
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More than likely!
I posted a link to this on the engine oils discussion. MobilGard 1 SHC
It states that it is zinc free, and has a maximum Chlorine of 150ppm.
Molakule, have you any idea what they are using here ?
It states that it is zinc free, and has a maximum Chlorine of 150ppm.
Molakule, have you any idea what they are using here ?
MolaKule
Staff member
Ill take a stab at it.
It appears they are drawing on an older patent which used a Chlorinated Polyaryl compound (Chlorinated n-phenyl) as AW and EP agents.
In the older patent, a triaryl ester of phosphorthionic acid was used.
The Chlorinated Polyaryl compound has probably been esterified by now (this is one of the latest techniques for deriving a molecule with all the goodies in one package) into a Chlorinated ester that has been stabilized by a dimercapto-thiadiazole compound.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
It appears they are drawing on an older patent which used a Chlorinated Polyaryl compound (Chlorinated n-phenyl) as AW and EP agents.
In the older patent, a triaryl ester of phosphorthionic acid was used.
The Chlorinated Polyaryl compound has probably been esterified by now (this is one of the latest techniques for deriving a molecule with all the goodies in one package) into a Chlorinated ester that has been stabilized by a dimercapto-thiadiazole compound.
[ September 15, 2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Same stuff as in our locomotive engine oils.
Can you buy the stuff in consumer packaging or only by the drum?
I'd like to try it in a motorcycle transmision.
Ca PHenate ?
Can you buy the stuff in consumer packaging or only by the drum?
I'd like to try it in a motorcycle transmision.
Ca PHenate ?
molakule,
..........ummmmmmmm, I missed most of what you said there, guess I need to read up a bit more. A lot more. I loved organic chemistry, but after 12 years I think it's gone far beyond my old textbooks.
Are these compounds any relation to the dreaded PCBs that we have to "dispose of thoughtfully" at present ?
If they're not such an issue, what makes them different ?
Any comments on triclosan ? (I see chlorine and benzene rings, and won't put said product in my mouth)
Sorry for so many questions, but I'm learning heaps on this site.
..........ummmmmmmm, I missed most of what you said there, guess I need to read up a bit more. A lot more. I loved organic chemistry, but after 12 years I think it's gone far beyond my old textbooks.
Are these compounds any relation to the dreaded PCBs that we have to "dispose of thoughtfully" at present ?
If they're not such an issue, what makes them different ?
Any comments on triclosan ? (I see chlorine and benzene rings, and won't put said product in my mouth)
Sorry for so many questions, but I'm learning heaps on this site.
Did I miss something in the spec sheet? I thought that locomotive and some marine engine oils were zink and chlorine free.
Does the 12+ FZG test mean anything in the application of these types of oils in transmissions and gear reduction boxes?
Shannow, I half deaf from turbo diesels using these types of lubricants.
WHAT?
[ September 16, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
Does the 12+ FZG test mean anything in the application of these types of oils in transmissions and gear reduction boxes?
Shannow, I half deaf from turbo diesels using these types of lubricants.
WHAT?
[ September 16, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Shannow,
PCB's and these compounds in the Diesel Oil are only related in terms of their individual elements.
The EP/AW add appears to be based on a stabilized Chlorine Ester to replace the ZDDP. Else, why even report the chlorine as 150 ppm. I know of no secondary process that would put that much chlorine into an oil.
[ September 16, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
PCB's and these compounds in the Diesel Oil are only related in terms of their individual elements.
The EP/AW add appears to be based on a stabilized Chlorine Ester to replace the ZDDP. Else, why even report the chlorine as 150 ppm. I know of no secondary process that would put that much chlorine into an oil.
[ September 16, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
Chlorine ester?
I'm lost.
I'm lost.
MolaKule
Staff member
I could accept 15 ppm chlorine as a production byproduct, but not a 150 ppm reading.
As you stated, some refining processes have to use intermediates such as chlorines, ammonias, florines, sulfides, etc, but they should leave but a trace.
As you stated, some refining processes have to use intermediates such as chlorines, ammonias, florines, sulfides, etc, but they should leave but a trace.
So I guess everyone thinks that our hi-perf flat tappet cams will be safe with GF-4? Even with fast lobes and high spring pressure?
What are the groups thoughts? Seems that the Hot Rod crowd percieves the Comp Cams Xtreme energy cams as the best thing since sliced bread. Seems to me an aggressive lobe like this will place higher demands on the lubricant at the cam/lifter interface. Will the new oils handle it?
What are the groups thoughts? Seems that the Hot Rod crowd percieves the Comp Cams Xtreme energy cams as the best thing since sliced bread. Seems to me an aggressive lobe like this will place higher demands on the lubricant at the cam/lifter interface. Will the new oils handle it?
Brainwashed . The unsymmetrical cam lobe did not originate in their backyard anyway . They just use the technology of it .
Many ways to get a job done with cams and cylinder fill/expell the spent gas . Comp Cams is but one of the ways .
API SL GF-3 30wt was not exactly the ticket to secure longetivety of a performance cam either . Cams can go south with SG oils . Much comes into play thats not often thought about by the average gear head when it comes to cams and long lives on the street .
After reading this thread, I am not going to concern myself with the reducing zinc and phosphorus levels. It apparently is a non-issue with the blessing in disguise of the better, more expensive additives supplmenting/replacing the ZDDP levels.
I am quite interested in the article re polymer esters as an antiwear booster.
I am quite interested in the article re polymer esters as an antiwear booster.
Is that like an ester base oil? Perhaps like Redline Oil? Or is is an ester VII?
MolaKule
Staff member
These esters are usually specialized esters.
They exhibit:
1. Excellent temperature stability
2. High polarity for attachment and adherence to metals.
3. good basicity to fight acids
4. form a plastic-like film when compressed or squeezed between surfaces.
They may be incorporated in the VII OR other additives, or be part of other base-oil esters since they are molecularly similar to those additives and base oils.
These esters are definately a complex polyol ester:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000357
Complex esters can be designed or tailored for any application.
They exhibit:
1. Excellent temperature stability
2. High polarity for attachment and adherence to metals.
3. good basicity to fight acids
4. form a plastic-like film when compressed or squeezed between surfaces.
They may be incorporated in the VII OR other additives, or be part of other base-oil esters since they are molecularly similar to those additives and base oils.
These esters are definately a complex polyol ester:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000357
Complex esters can be designed or tailored for any application.
MolaKule
Staff member
As the article stated, newer "secondary" AW/antioxidants additives will assist when ZDDP levels are lowered.
You have already seen Concentrated High-Base Calcium, boron, and antimony adds being used as secondary AW additives.
MolaKule
Staff member
Unless Motorcycles are forced to endure Cats, I don't see any reduction in ZDDP. The ZDDP level should remain at approx. 0.12%.
Just remember, ZDDP is not the cure all; it is simply cheap and has been the incumbent for so many years it has become a defacto standard.
What will happen is that in PCMO's a reduction in ZDDP will occur with a subsequent rise in other additives. The esters are already in production.
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