FWIW, check this address posting:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
They share similar concerns.
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
They share similar concerns.
Recommended Synthetic Oil for 1985 Porsche 911
- Thread starter ezatu
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Huh? Elaborate on the older damaged engines. How old is older? Details please.
Thanks for the link, Buster....very interesting read.
We have posted the Zn and P test reports we did with Harris Labs (too expensive to have this level of testing done to more than just the elements in question this time) here:
http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/harrisV-4M-4.jpg
The two results are coded M4 and V4, for Mobil 1 and Valvoline respectively. We do not brand label the sample Polypropylene tubes we submit the samples in order to eliminate possible conflict of interest at the lab (we do not know who is any lab's biggest customer)
I have been reading about the synergy between boron and ZDDP as well, and I keep coming up with one question (which came up in the Boron thread as well):
Boron seems to show some great specific wear resistant film characteristics. Neither we nor probably anyone else in this forum has the facilities to run full scale API sequence tests for cam/lifter wear (if someone does, we need to talk!). Since Boron as an EP agent has been around since the 1960s, why has it not displaced ZDDP until now, and now only because of the catalyst poisoning issue?
I do not mean to say that it is inferior to ZDDP, I have no proof one way or the other, and the oil industry relying on ZDDP so heavily may be due to financial issues surrounding Boron.
Bottom line for us is that properly dosed, ZDDP seems to have been the EP of choice for engines with flat lifters, as evidenced by API oils up to SG at least.
If someone has some actual tests of older, flat tappet engines with modern Boron EP oil, I would sure love to see it. Until then, we will continue recommending ZDDP for classic and performance cars.
We have posted the Zn and P test reports we did with Harris Labs (too expensive to have this level of testing done to more than just the elements in question this time) here:
http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/harrisV-4M-4.jpg
The two results are coded M4 and V4, for Mobil 1 and Valvoline respectively. We do not brand label the sample Polypropylene tubes we submit the samples in order to eliminate possible conflict of interest at the lab (we do not know who is any lab's biggest customer)
I have been reading about the synergy between boron and ZDDP as well, and I keep coming up with one question (which came up in the Boron thread as well):
Boron seems to show some great specific wear resistant film characteristics. Neither we nor probably anyone else in this forum has the facilities to run full scale API sequence tests for cam/lifter wear (if someone does, we need to talk!). Since Boron as an EP agent has been around since the 1960s, why has it not displaced ZDDP until now, and now only because of the catalyst poisoning issue?
I do not mean to say that it is inferior to ZDDP, I have no proof one way or the other, and the oil industry relying on ZDDP so heavily may be due to financial issues surrounding Boron.
Bottom line for us is that properly dosed, ZDDP seems to have been the EP of choice for engines with flat lifters, as evidenced by API oils up to SG at least.
If someone has some actual tests of older, flat tappet engines with modern Boron EP oil, I would sure love to see it. Until then, we will continue recommending ZDDP for classic and performance cars.
As always......Thank You all for providing valuable information and an overall education into properties imparted by various lubricant additives. I've decided on two oils:
dino - Brad Penn Racing 20w-50
synthetic - Amsoil ARO 20W-50
both come higly recommended by those with a greater knowledge of petroleum lubricants than I.
Again,.......thank you all for your help.
dino - Brad Penn Racing 20w-50
synthetic - Amsoil ARO 20W-50
both come higly recommended by those with a greater knowledge of petroleum lubricants than I.
Again,.......thank you all for your help.
My understanding is that ZDDP and boron form AW films ON the metal, as opposed to EP adds that form films WITH the metal.
Is my understanding correct?
Is my understanding correct?
The process requires high temperature + pressure and the "sacrifical" glass-like film is only a few microns thick... I typically like to say that the film forms between the metals causing the high temperatue and high pressure.
You mean like this: ZDDP paper
I don't believe there is any surface reactivity with ZDDP as opposed to EP adds like sulphur, phos, chlor, etc... The film simply forms on the metal surface (mostly on the tops of the asperities).
I don't believe there is any surface reactivity with ZDDP as opposed to EP adds like sulphur, phos, chlor, etc... The film simply forms on the metal surface (mostly on the tops of the asperities).
Hi Tempest,
I recall reading this paper.. and it mentions the thickness of the film... measured in nm... Thanks for the reference.
I recall reading this paper.. and it mentions the thickness of the film... measured in nm... Thanks for the reference.
Hi Cary,
Yes. We recently submitted Mobile 1 for Zn and P levels.. and as I recall the results were < .001% by weight P.. I'm not sure which oil we submitted.. but I'll check the files.
Yes. We recently submitted Mobile 1 for Zn and P levels.. and as I recall the results were < .001% by weight P.. I'm not sure which oil we submitted.. but I'll check the files.
MolaKule
Staff member
Mr. Navone, welcome to the group.
Just a suggestion, but I would have additional oil analysis done by other companies, since my experience has taught me to use two or more oil analysis firms for
important analysis. I suggest Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis for the most honest and professional analyses. Never rely on one source alone to develop a major hypothesis.
I notice your firm recommends two oils that have high levels of ZDDP, but these are not the only oils that have good Anti-Wear additives.
Some Notes on ZDDP.
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates (ZDDP):
Identifications
* CAS Number: 68457-79-4
Synonyms:
* Dithiophosphoric Acid, O,O'-Isobutyl Amyl Ester, Zinc Salt
* Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates (ZDDP)
ZDDP is an ester which is used as an Anti-Wear agent and an Anti-Oxidant agent (a multifunctional additive) in oil additives and is composed of the elements of zinc, phosphorous, and sulfur.
In order to detect ZDDP molecules you need to determine if the Z, P, and S elements are present.
Now, in PCMO's and other lubricants, there may be other additives that contribute to the sulfur, and may produce false readings.
One needs to run an adsorption analysis to really determine if the lubricant contains ZDDP in the presence of P, Z, and S.
One CAN have elements of phosphoruus, zinc, and sulfur present without having any ZDDP in the lubricant whatsoever.
I.E., It is possible to have all three elements, zinc, phosphorous and sulfur, and not have ZDDP present.
Phosphor compounds of mainly esters of phosphorous can provide good AW and EP qualities, and was used in hydraulic fluids as AW and EP agents before ZDDP appeared. When phosphor is combined with sulfur and zinc, a synergistic molecule arises. It is believed that the phosphor contributes to the slippery "molten-glass" effect.
There are zinc compounds of naphthenates and neodecanoates that contain high concentrations of zinc, but both are expensive.
I have yet to see any clean oil analysis with zinc and phos. levels below about 600 ppm or 0.06% by weight, although it is not out of the question to develop an oil without any metallic compounds whatsover; it is simply just not cost effective at this time and until proper and less costly AW additives are found, ZDDP will continue to be used at lower levels with supplementary AW additives such as calcium, boron, copper, molybdenum, and antimony.
Another BITOG Article:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=3&vc=1
Look here for some good laymen’s info on ZDDP chemistry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP
http://www.elcocorp.com/Elco ZDDP table.
An Article on Spectroscopy of oils:
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477
Just a suggestion, but I would have additional oil analysis done by other companies, since my experience has taught me to use two or more oil analysis firms for
important analysis. I suggest Terry Dyson of Dyson Analysis for the most honest and professional analyses. Never rely on one source alone to develop a major hypothesis.
I notice your firm recommends two oils that have high levels of ZDDP, but these are not the only oils that have good Anti-Wear additives.
Some Notes on ZDDP.
Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates (ZDDP):
Identifications
* CAS Number: 68457-79-4
Synonyms:
* Dithiophosphoric Acid, O,O'-Isobutyl Amyl Ester, Zinc Salt
* Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates (ZDDP)
ZDDP is an ester which is used as an Anti-Wear agent and an Anti-Oxidant agent (a multifunctional additive) in oil additives and is composed of the elements of zinc, phosphorous, and sulfur.
In order to detect ZDDP molecules you need to determine if the Z, P, and S elements are present.
Now, in PCMO's and other lubricants, there may be other additives that contribute to the sulfur, and may produce false readings.
One needs to run an adsorption analysis to really determine if the lubricant contains ZDDP in the presence of P, Z, and S.
One CAN have elements of phosphoruus, zinc, and sulfur present without having any ZDDP in the lubricant whatsoever.
I.E., It is possible to have all three elements, zinc, phosphorous and sulfur, and not have ZDDP present.
Phosphor compounds of mainly esters of phosphorous can provide good AW and EP qualities, and was used in hydraulic fluids as AW and EP agents before ZDDP appeared. When phosphor is combined with sulfur and zinc, a synergistic molecule arises. It is believed that the phosphor contributes to the slippery "molten-glass" effect.
There are zinc compounds of naphthenates and neodecanoates that contain high concentrations of zinc, but both are expensive.
I have yet to see any clean oil analysis with zinc and phos. levels below about 600 ppm or 0.06% by weight, although it is not out of the question to develop an oil without any metallic compounds whatsover; it is simply just not cost effective at this time and until proper and less costly AW additives are found, ZDDP will continue to be used at lower levels with supplementary AW additives such as calcium, boron, copper, molybdenum, and antimony.
Another BITOG Article:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...part=3&vc=1
Look here for some good laymen’s info on ZDDP chemistry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZDDP
http://www.elcocorp.com/Elco ZDDP table.
An Article on Spectroscopy of oils:
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477
MolaKule
Staff member
MolaKule
Staff member
MolaKule
Staff member
Look here for some good laymen’s info on ZDDP chemistry:
This reference should be:
http://www.elcocorp.com/Elco ZDDP table.pdf
This reference should be:
http://www.elcocorp.com/Elco ZDDP table.pdf
MolaKule
Staff member
Esters and lowered ZDDP:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/112468708/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/112468708/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
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