PL14477 Autopsy

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Greggy_D
Wow! What in the [censored] is going on with the P1's lately?


Who cares ? There's plenty of other brands out there that don't have that problem.

That's what's so nice about competition - you screw up, somebody else takes your place.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I wonder if Purolator is listening to all the feedback and doing something about it? If not, I guess they deserve to lose some business.

 

[Merkava_4]

^
With today's age of social networking, if you have something go wrong with your product, a whole 'lotta people are gonna know about it fast!!

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: earlyre
PL14477 off my Buddies Vibe, not sure how many miles, somewhere in the 6-8k range, over 9 Mo.(07/11/13-04/12/14)

Notice the Pleats on Both Sides of the Seam are Torn loose from the Glue. but that seems to be the only tearing...





The appearance of media at the attachment points looks like it might allow some seepage, but it it far short of a hole and of a failure. It is not uncommon to find some perforation in media.

Here's another Purolator made filter with the same design:

Bosch 3300

which seems to indicate it's not a design issue.

If it were mine I would not be concerned in the least.

 

[R80RS]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
It will be good to see the UOA.

Bet it's fine.

It will be just as good as a FRAM Ultra for the same period.

You need to check the definition of failure.

A tire that is well worn at the end of its service life hasn't failed.


Bad analogy. A media tear is not a result of being "well worn". Using your tire example, analogous failure would be separation of a belt or rupture failure in a sidewall. Besides, this filter was not otherwise used to its full capacity (i.e. "well worn") based on mileage and time in service.

 

[R80RS]

The question I've not seen asked is are Purolator made Motorcraft filters also exhibiting similar media failure, or is their construction sufficiently different that it doesn't happen?

 

[quint]

Originally Posted By: SLATRON
Has anyone seen a P1 with tears that didn't have a metal crimped seam?

Me. I cut open one last week and it had tears, same places as the metal crimped ones. Pictures later...

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: R80RS
Bad analogy. A media tear is not a result of being "well worn".

On the other hand, this filter does not appear to have failed.

The bulk of the oil went through the filter media, no media is missing that would have gone into the engine, the engine was not starved for oil. It borders on being cosmetic.

Here are some actual filter failures:

Chinese WIX 51145 "equivalent" for a '93 300CE

Counterfeit BMW N42 318i filter disintegrated

Fram Ultra XG2 bypass spring assy broke

Media Perforation from external dent

Filters do fail, sometimes from manufacturing defects, sometimes from damage during installation, or from damage from road debris.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: R80RS
The question I've not seen asked is are Purolator made Motorcraft filters also exhibiting similar media failure, or is their construction sufficiently different that it doesn't happen?
I've asked this question a couple times, with little response. I don't think many people are cutting open the Motorcrafts.

 

[99Saturn]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Yes, from all the torn media reports posted here, it certainly seems the filters with the metal crimped seam have the problem.

Anyone seen this failure on a PL10111? The last one I cut open did not have a metal crimp, though I'm not sure if design could have been updated at some point?

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: R80RS
The question I've not seen asked is are Purolator made Motorcraft filters also exhibiting similar media failure, or is their construction sufficiently different that it doesn't happen?
I've asked this question a couple times, with little response. I don't think many people are cutting open the Motorcrafts.

When i Change the oil on my sable in the fall, I'll be sure to dissect the FL-400s. just need to decide what to put in it's place for the winter(with a run of PPPP), another FL400s, or a PL20195...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
The appearance of media at the attachment points looks like it might allow some seepage, but it it far short of a hole and of a failure. It is not uncommon to find some perforation in media.

If it were mine I would not be concerned in the least.


IMO, any tearing in the media is allowing unfiltered oil past the media, and could even be allowing very small pieces or fibers of the media to down through the engine that get swept off the torn edges of the media by the oil flowing through the tear.

Tearing media is not normal. If it was, every filter made would have some kind of media tear/failure, but they don't.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: R80RS
The question I've not seen asked is are Purolator made Motorcraft filters also exhibiting similar media failure, or is their construction sufficiently different that it doesn't happen?
I've asked this question a couple times, with little response. I don't think many people are cutting open the Motorcrafts.


I don't recall any Motorcrafts being reported with media tears. Could be they do not exhibit the problem because the media is different than that used in the Purolators. The one Classic I found myself to have a tear, I notice the media was very brittle and tore easily with my not much finger pressure.

 

[KCJeep]

It's been posted quite a bit cause it always seems to come up, I have yet to see a Motorcraft with a media tear either.

 

[gregk24]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
It will be good to see the UOA.

Bet it's fine.

It will be just as good as a FRAM Ultra for the same period.

You need to check the definition of failure.

A tire that is well worn at the end of its service life hasn't failed.




Are you saying this is not a failure? The media is clearly torn and allowing unfiltered oil to flow through the engine.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
IMO, any tearing in the media is allowing unfiltered oil past the media, and could even be allowing very small pieces or fibers of the media to down through the engine that get swept off the torn edges of the media by the oil flowing through the tear.

Given all the glue in many filters, sealants in the engine, and what-not floating around, I wouldn't put my knickers in a twist over the slight tears shown.

Quote:
Tearing media is not normal. If it was, every filter made would have some kind of media tear/failure, but they don't.

Unless you've disassembled a random representative sample of every filter made and examined it for the tiny tears noted so far, you have no basis for asserting that Purolators are unique in having these small media imperfections.

Perhaps the real problem is Fram filters with broken bypass spring retainers.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
IMO, any tearing in the media is allowing unfiltered oil past the media, and could even be allowing very small pieces or fibers of the media to down through the engine that get swept off the torn edges of the media by the oil flowing through the tear.

Given all the glue in many filters, sealants in the engine, and what-not floating around, I wouldn't put my knickers in a twist over the slight tears shown.


Yeah, but that stuff "floating around" inside the engine is supposed to be caught by the oil filter. So the whole purpose of an oil filter is to clean 100% of the oil passing through the filter and feed clean oil to the engine. A filter having a tear in the media is compromised and really doesn't allow that to happen.

I guess if you don't want a filter to do what it's supposed to do, then keep running filters that have holes in the media.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Tearing media is not normal. If it was, every filter made would have some kind of media tear/failure, but they don't.


Unless you've disassembled a random representative sample of every filter made and examined it for the tiny tears noted so far, you have no basis for asserting that Purolators are unique in having these small media imperfections.

Perhaps the real problem is Fram filters with broken bypass spring retainers.


Base on what I've seen reported here, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a major problem with Purolators having way more media tears than what would be considered "normal".

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Yeah, but that stuff "floating around" inside the engine is supposed to be caught by the oil filter. So the whole purpose of an oil filter is to clean 100% of the oil passing through the filter and feed clean oil to the engine.

If that were the purpose of the filter, there would be no bypass valves.

Every filter bypasses some portion of the time, some more than others.

The purpose of the filter is to reduce - not eliminate - the particulate matter over a certain size up to a certain point. It will not eliminate contaminants in solution, very small particles below it's rating, moisture, anti-freeze, or anything that goes through while it's bypassing.

Quote:
A filter having a tear in the media is compromised and really doesn't allow that to happen.

The tears illustrated let less oil through than the bypass valve already does. You're defining this in black and white with less than perfect as a "failure". That means that every filter with the bypass spring off a couple pounds, or with some dirt in it so it's operating less efficiently than when new, or with a pinhole in the media is a "failure". That's completely unrelated to how things really work.

Quote:
Base on what I've seen reported here, there is no doubt in my mind that there is a major problem with Purolators having way more media tears than what would be considered "normal".

You've made it clear that there is a problem in your mind and you wish to lead an anti-Purolator campaign.

Others, like myself, would be interested in whether there is a problem in reality, if there is the extent of it, and the cause or causes of it. I am sure Purolator is in the process of looking into it as well.

The overheated rhetoric in an emotional appeal is not a fair, objective, and scientific approach.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Every filter bypasses some portion of the time, some more than others.

The tears illustrated let less oil through than the bypass valve already does. You're defining this in black and white with less than perfect as a "failure". That means that every filter with the bypass spring off a couple pounds, or with some dirt in it so it's operating less efficiently than when new, or with a pinhole in the media is a "failure". That's completely unrelated to how things really work.


It all depends, but typically filters rarely bypass the media unless the filter is abused and clogged up with sludge. If the oil is warm it's impossible to make the filter byapss open on my LS6 5.7L V8 at red line. Now if I was a fool and revved the engine to red line with cold oil you can bet the filter would bypass.

And have you done tests and calculations that says a media tear of x.x sq-in that exists for 7,000 miles passes less dirty oil then a bypass valve that opens rarely over 7,000 miles? It's a pretty invalid comparison and excuse to accept torn filter media.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
You've made it clear that there is a problem in your mind and you wish to lead an anti-Purolator campaign.


You really haven't been paying attention. I'm not "anti-Purolator" ... I'm "anti-failure" driven. If these tears were occurring in Frams, or WIX or Amsoil or ACDelco or whatever ... I would be talking about it the same way I am now.

Also, I currrently have a PureOne on 2 of my 3 vehicles. The other has a Fram Ultra. Also have about 4 or 5 waiting in the stash. I've been big PureOne advocate here for years, and I'm a big fan of the Ultra. But if Purolator can't get their act together I will stop using them.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Others, like myself, would be interested in whether there is a problem in reality, if there is the extent of it, and the cause or causes of it. I am sure Purolator is in the process of looking into it as well.

The overheated rhetoric in an emotional appeal is not a fair, objective, and scientific approach.


Again, if you had been paying attention I've given my engineering analysis what I think the possible "root cause" could be. Unbiased in brand ... biased in what I see. And I can surely bet that this is a Purolator problem. Something has changed in their materials and/or manufacturing process that has made the media fail under use.

Is Purolator looking into it? ... let's hope so. I've emailed them 3 or 4 times about this issue. If they aren't looking into it, then they have the same attitude you do ... that is, it's really not happening because one chat board sees all these failures, and if it is, what does it matter because it's just a "little tear" that's not gonna hurt anything - expect their customer base and sales. Oh well ...

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D

Others, like myself, would be interested in whether there is a problem in reality, if there is the extent of it, and the cause or causes of it. I am sure Purolator is in the process of looking into it as well.

The overheated rhetoric in an emotional appeal is not a fair, objective, and scientific approach.


I am the "other people". I saw the reports of tears and I decided to check myself. This is what I found:

Yup, a failure. Not only that, but on a vehicle that is designed with a very HIGH bypass setting 20psi+. Failed at both ends.

I emailed Purolator. I got a quick response that they were kicking it up. Heard nothing since. Nothing emotional, but there is a serious problem considering the numerous reports of failures (FYI, the "Doc" means Ph.D.). You would expect the odd failure every once in a while, but there were multiple threads here about the SAME failure. I do not need to test every customer at a seafood buffet to know that the many people who bothered going to hospital reporting food-poisoning to know there is a health concern.