Pilot Compensation Up To $590,000 Per Year

[Astro14]

Astro,

What is the washout rate at Aviate after the students are accepted into program ?

That is an excellent question and I don’t have the answer.

I don’t believe the company is sharing data on the Aviate washout rate, nor is information available on how many pilots, of any category, new, old, Captain, FO, narrow body, wide body, require retraining.

But I know from firsthand experience that the number is greater than zero.

I have (personally) had students that get extra training in their initial qualification course. I have had students require extra training when they come back for their annual training and checks.

have had students that were given extra training, still didn’t meet standards, and were offered a chance to retire.

I have a friend, who once had a new hire student that made a deliberate, egregious procedural mistake, during his first check ride. He was gently corrected by the Captain.

He made the mistake again, and when questioned about it by my friend the evaluator, got confrontational, saying, essentially, “whatever, Boomer.”

The ride was ended on the spot. A meeting with ALPA, management, my friend, and that student took place the next morning.

That student pilot was fired, and sent home that afternoon. Quite a price to pay for mouthing off, for blaming the instructor/evaluator for being the source of the problem, instead of accepting his own role (willful violation of an FAR).

So, good riddance.

His history, and his attitude, were much like the FO on Atlas 3591. We all know how that worked out.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

I didn’t have an easy career.

No help from anyone ( zero, nothing ).

My parents would not help me out ( no loans either ).

My parents were well off but not the type to help out ( school, buy your own car, pay your own wedding, no loans for anything ).

I got turned down by the Airforce ( wanted to fly fighters ) due to my eyesight ( today, they let people fly with my eyesight, imagine that ) and got turned down by my own airline due to, eyesight.

Neither the Airforce or Airline had a real, justifiable medical reason why I could not fly for them.

I was already flying for another airline my current employer owned which made their “ bona ride “ medical excuse ridiculous.

I faced my own employment barriers, discrimination and had to overcome it.

My “ privilege “ in life is my stubbornness and failure to give up when many do despite not having financial help and discrimination ( sorry, excluding people based on medical reasons that are not bona fide is discrimination ).

My dad got really angry with me and told me I would never win.

I did win.

I quit school, worked to save money and finished my education at night school.

No financial help , medical barriers, over 11 airlines ( small/ medium and large ) , I made it.

My wife made it in her own career ( max security correctional officer….99.999% male dominated ) with even more obstacles than I had to knock down. She grew up in a trailer, dirt poor.

She put herself through university and was the first in her family to do so.

I am not a fan of quotas.

If you want to be a pilot, you will be a pilot , no mater where you come from, especially today.

Am I bitter, no, but I see how many will only try something if it’s easy , and guaranteed.

My step son is biracial BTW.

BTW, glad to hear one of our super low paid flight attendants just completed all of the required flight training to be a commercial pilot and he didn’t have any help. He just quit and started flying with some small company to build hours but I have no doubt I will see him back at my airline as a pilot one day.

You can become an airline pilot without quotas or academies.

It is harder but you can do it if you really want it bad enough ( and are willing to take the risk you might not get on right away ).

That said, if airlines ( Europe, Asia has been doing it for years ) feel they need to hire and train their own pilots from scratch because of shortages, go for it but don’t ever feel you cannot achieve your pilot goals if you don’t get accepted.

Keep trying , own your own.

 

[y_p_w]

That said, if airlines ( Europe, Asia has been doing it for years ) feel they need to hire and train their own pilots from scratch because of shortages, go for it but don’t ever feel you cannot achieve your pilot goals if you don’t get accepted.

Foreign airlines sending recruits to US flight schools for training has become news around here. There was a case of a school in Redding, California where a couple of employees tried to forcibly remove a student to send him back to China, where an airline had sent him. He had clearly washed out, but he didn’t want to leave. But the way they handled it was pretty much kidnapping. But the telling of the story provided a lot of background into how dependent some airlines are on American flight schools and how these schools are dependent on foreign students mostly sent in by foreign air,ines.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Foreign airlines sending recruits to US flight schools for training has become news around here. There was a case of a school in Redding, California where a couple of employees tried to forcibly remove a student to send him back to China, where an airline had sent him. He had clearly washed out, but he didn’t want to leave. But the way they handled it was pretty much kidnapping. But the telling of the story provided a lot of background into how dependent some airlines are on American flight schools and how these schools are dependent on foreign students mostly sent in by foreign air,ines.

I have zero doubt some flight schools are heavily dependant on foreign pilots.

I see that up here in some examples.

Never heard of any problems though.

 

[PWMDMD]

If you are in a protected class, you won't wash out. The airlines are scared to death of the publicity a "wrongful termination" lawsuit for being racist and/or anti LGBTQXYZ would bring. Those protected class incompetents know they have the airlines by the balls and will sue them in a heartbeat if they try to fire them for their aviation incompetence.

Airlines today are more interested in which left wing organizations you "volunteer" your time for than what your experience and competence is as a pilot. Most airlines don't even do a basic simulator screening during your interview.

United has stated they are targeting women, POC, LGBTQXYZ and any other protected class as a priority.

Not a pilot but in a highly technical field that is difficult to get into and predominately white. Out of 35 students in my class 4 were people of color and one had a major physical disability - all protected classes. Once admitted, no one gave a poop about being part of a protected class. Of those 5, one never made it past the first year, two went on to be really talented oral surgeons whose scope of practice is much more difficult than most oral surgeons, one a general dentist, and the gentleman with the physical disability is a very successful pediatric dentist. No one was getting by on their protected class status and the one who went home and everyone else there knew why he was not promoted to the next year. FWIW....57% of my class was female.

 

[UncleDave]

How many pilots are at this level in the entire industry ?

 

[y_p_w]

I have zero doubt some flight schools are heavily dependant on foreign pilots.

I see that up here in some examples.

Never heard of any problems though.

This one was off the rails crazy. Mother of the student was so worried that he’d wash out that she went to their office in China (shows how dependent they were on Chinese students) with a bag of money.

IASCO settlement: Jonathan McConkey, Kelsi Hoser plead no-contest to misdemeanors

Jonathan McConkey, the school’s former general manager, and Kelsi Hoser, the school’s ex-director of administration and secretary, pleaded no-contest.

www.redding.com

In court papers, Rappaport alleged that Shi’s mother was so desperate to keep her son enrolled at IASCO that she went to the school’s home office in China and attempted to bribe the company, one time offering up “a brown paper bag filled with cash.”​

​

Shi’s mother also told the home office that her son would commit suicide if he was expelled from the flight school, Rappaport alleged.​

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

Just to be crystal clear here, I am not insinuating any protected class is held to a lower standard in aviation, not at all.

My airline has failed upgrades regardless of gender, etc.

That said, there is no question that it’s easier for certain groups to get hired today ( higher priority ).

I am not not suggesting certain groups are less qualified, not at all.

I used to be a chief pilot and hired.

Out of 8 pilots, 3 were female. I promoted one to Captain.

That was 31 years ago.

The 3 females were the first to get on with the major airlines.

Of the 8 pilots, the weak one was male. They guy ( I didn’t hire him ) should never have been a pilot. He quit aviation after that airline went bankrupt.

With many jobs today up here, you are required to check off a box ( application ) and self identify which group you belong to.

There is a reason for that.

I like having fair, honest conversations.

Once again, I am not suggesting at all airlines are hiring less qualified people, not at all.

There are weak pilots in every group ( male too ) that still manage to make it through the process in aviation. Not many, but some.

We read about them or hear about it on TV at times.

I have extremely strong feelings about treating people equally and fairly and feel I have practiced it in my personal and professional life.

Thats why I am totally against quota’s.

 

[edyvw]

The conversation is far more complicated than that. Personal experiences are that, personal. That is different from institutional issues.
I came to this country bcs. the opportunity came up bcs. my previous experience. I was on F1 (foreign student visa) status, and could not get a job outside the university. I did have 70% scholarship for undergraduate studies (which I decided to do all over again, regardless of my law degree in another country). Finished bachelor in 2 1/2yrs. Got a full scholarship + more for master. How? I was knocking door to door and asking for scholarships. Got that + a seat at Air University. Then they offered PhD plus a seat at Air War College (which is only by invitation and not opened to public). When I was done (all that in 7 1/2yrs, including bachelor) I did not have a cent of debt and was working some strange jobs to make a living regardless that my school was paid, bcs. I was not legal to work.
However, I know systematic issues in these same organizations that provided me with opportunities. I know for systematic problems in public schools where I lived, while private were some of the best in the country. I personally would never move my kids there to grow up.
So, the issue is gray, very gray. It cannot be looked like black and white situation. A lot of people put emphasis on diversity for a reason. A lot of people think it is ridiculous bcs. they never faced that issue.
The article posted about hiring tells us also how far we came, but some people see that that means priority is given to someone bcs. background. It depends in which ecosystem one lives in. A lot of those people think they are somehow screwed over bcs. we have more female or pilots of different color or ethnic background. Those same people usually think that diversity os to blame for their flat tire, broken fridge etc.
I have now a lot of students who raise this issue: but why it matters if someone is woman, a person of color etc? That is why they read "Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment." It was not long time ago.
Diversity is good, very good. Let's put on a side ethics and morality, it provides you with possibly of different, better, solutions to the potential problems.

 

[Just a civilian pilot]

The conversation is far more complicated than that. Personal experiences are that, personal. That is different from institutional issues.
I came to this country bcs. the opportunity came up bcs. my previous experience. I was on F1 (foreign student visa) status, and could not get a job outside the university. I did have 70% scholarship for undergraduate studies (which I decided to do all over again, regardless of my law degree in another country). Finished bachelor in 2 1/2yrs. Got a full scholarship + more for master. How? I was knocking door to door and asking for scholarships. Got that + a seat at Air University. Then they offered PhD plus a seat at Air War College (which is only by invitation and not opened to public). When I was done (all that in 7 1/2yrs, including bachelor) I did not have a cent of debt and was working some strange jobs to make a living regardless that my school was paid, bcs. I was not legal to work.
However, I know systematic issues in these same organizations that provided me with opportunities. I know for systematic problems in public schools where I lived, while private were some of the best in the country. I personally would never move my kids there to grow up.
So, the issue is gray, very gray. It cannot be looked like black and white situation. A lot of people put emphasis on diversity for a reason. A lot of people think it is ridiculous bcs. they never faced that issue.
The article posted about hiring tells us also how far we came, but some people see that that means priority is given to someone bcs. background. It depends in which ecosystem one lives in. A lot of those people think they are somehow screwed over bcs. we have more female or pilots of different color or ethnic background. Those same people usually think that diversity os to blame for their flat tire, broken fridge etc.
I have now a lot of students who raise this issue: but why it matters if someone is woman, a person of color etc? That is why they read "Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment." It was not long time ago.
Diversity is good, very good. Let's put on a side ethics and morality, it provides you with possibly of different, better, solutions to the potential problems.

With all due respect, now you are discussing your opinion based on your own “personal experience”.

Nobody here ( except one previous person ) is even remotely saying diversity is not good.

Nobody here is ( except one precious post ) even remotely suggesting standards are being lowered.

To me, the best thing for any industry is the right people are in it ( skill, personality, attitude, easy going yet professional ).

I just mentored a person ( ”protected group” ) who is from another country that failed their first CA upgrade at my airline and it really , really , bothered me because he used to fly with me as a FO years ago and I saw how negatively it affected them.

They had major confidence issues and had convinced themselves they would never attempt upgrading again. This person didn’t have an easy life and that’s why they came to Canada.

Someone told this person…” not everyone is cut out to be a Captain“ ( which is very true, but ). This devastated this person. Someone actually had the Gaul to mention to everyone in the room they know he failed his upgrade. That really affected him.

I asked him to try again and that I simply didn’t believe he could not do it if he had some help from someone with lots of experience. I told them I would not say that if it wasn’t true.

I spent more time with this person than I did on myself when I upgraded.

Watching them and seeing their confidence go up steadily was an amazing thing to watch.

They passed with “flying colours“ I was told ( Maverick …..2.0 we joke about him ) and I was happier for them than me when I went Ca.

Nobody more than me wants a person to be happy, achieve their dreams and goals.

I do not want to have this thread shut down so people can PM if they wan to discuss it with me you know my feelings and why.

Over and out.

No more from me on this topic ( plus, errands to do lol ).

 

[edyvw]

With all due respect, now you are discussing your opinion based on your own “personal experience”.

Nobody here ( except one previous person ) is even remotely saying diversity is not good.

Nobody here is ( except one precious post ) even remotely suggesting standards are being lowered.

To me, the best thing for any industry is the right people are in it ( skill, personality, attitude, easy going yet professional ).

I just mentored a person ( ”protected group” ) who is from another country that failed their first CA upgrade at my airline and it really , really , bothered me because he used to fly with me as a FO years ago and I saw how negatively it affected them.

They had major confidence issues and had convinced themselves they would never attempt upgrading again. This person didn’t have an easy life and that’s why they came to Canada.

Someone told this person…” not everyone is cut out to be a Captain“ ( which is very true, but ). This devastated this person. Someone actually had the Gaul to mention to everyone in the room they know he failed his upgrade. That really affected him.

I asked him to try again and that I simply didn’t believe he could not do it if he had some help from someone with lots of experience. I told them I would not say that if it wasn’t true.

I spent more time with this person than I did on myself when I upgraded.

Watching them and seeing their confidence go up steadily was an amazing thing to watch.

They passed with “flying colours“ I was told ( Maverick …..2.0 we joke about him ) and I was happier for them than me when I went Ca.

Nobody more than me wants a person to be happy, achieve their dreams and goals.

I do not want to have this thread shut down so people can PM if they wan to discuss it with me you know my feelings and why.

Over and out.

No more from me on this topic ( plus, errands to do lol ).

My point is that positive personal experience does not mean there are no institutional issues.
And actually, those are very well-documented issues. That is why people do put emphasis on diversity, which then some think it is an absolute priority, but it is not.

 

[Dave Hess]

That is an excellent question and I don’t have the answer.

I don’t believe the company is sharing data on the Aviate washout rate, nor is information available on how many pilots, of any category, new, old, Captain, FO, narrow body, wide body, require retraining.

But I know from firsthand experience that the number is greater than zero.

I have (personally) had students that get extra training in their initial qualification course. I have had students require extra training when they come back for their annual training and checks.

have had students that were given extra training, still didn’t meet standards, and were offered a chance to retire.

I have a friend, who once had a new hire student that made a deliberate, egregious procedural mistake, during his first check ride. He was gently corrected by the Captain.

He made the mistake again, and when questioned about it by my friend the evaluator, got confrontational, saying, essentially, “whatever, Boomer.”

The ride was ended on the spot. A meeting with ALPA, management, my friend, and that student took place the next morning.

That student pilot was fired, and sent home that afternoon. Quite a price to pay for mouthing off, for blaming the instructor/evaluator for being the source of the problem, instead of accepting his own role (willful violation of an FAR).

So, good riddance.

His history, and his attitude, were much like the FO on Atlas 3591. We all know how that worked out.

Good they threw the idiot jerk out of the program.

He would be a cancerous poison if he made it through the program and hired.

 

[wpod]

I would like to see if I could get by on $590,000 a year..........

Could you put up with what it takes to get there?

 

[totegoat]

Could you put up with what it takes to get there?

I do know that sitting on that amount of money is uncomfortable