If there is some visible wear going on........with 505.01 approved oils, would'nt you look for some other oil that could give you better protection, just 'cause VW says you can't or should'nt use unapproved oils. It's YOUR car, treat it better than the dealer would, your just a number to them anyways. IMHO.
PD VW TDI oil issue questions
- Thread starter Cujet
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I'm not aware that any PD engines are showing increased wear with the 505.01-rated motor oils.
As for the dealerships... many of them still aren't aware that PD engines are supposed to get the 505.01-rated oil, and folks are still finding regular 505.00-rated Syntec on their oil-change receipts.
There is nothing special about these 505.01 oils that addresses cam lobe wear. It is all about high temp/low temp performance for 10K drains, and protecting the emissions systems, not your cam lobes. Your warranty depends on using these oils and I guess it is up to you how you want to handle that. I will not recommend anyone throw away their warranty on a rather expensive little piece of equipment. You can head over to tdiclub.com for a little brainwashing by drivebiwire and that'll set you straight!
Personally, I would bet quite a bit that Delvac 1, Schaeffer's 9000 5w-40, RTS, Redline 5w-40 etc. will all protect BETTER than 505.01 oils in a PD VW engine. At least they have stout add packs.
Personally, I would bet quite a bit that Delvac 1, Schaeffer's 9000 5w-40, RTS, Redline 5w-40 etc. will all protect BETTER than 505.01 oils in a PD VW engine. At least they have stout add packs.
"Schaeffer SUPREME 9000 SAE 5W-40 Meets and exceeds the following manufacturers' requirements:.......Volkswagen VW 502.00, 505.00, and 505.01"
Not approved or certified as they never payed for the testing. So it is a gamble at best.
So you work for VW then? Maybe engineered the Pump Duesse injection system?
I mean you must have if you know the current 505.01 spec for PD's to be inadequate...wait whats that? You have no idea what your talking about, backyard engineering doesn't prove your right only ruins your credibility.
backyard engineering doesn't prove your right only ruins your credibility.
I know of a backyard engineer that built parts for the moon shot. He is still alive, lives in my neck of the woods (Florida) and will gladly display the type of components he engineered and built.
Every race team uses that very same type of backyard engineering to push the envelope. If all those lab and computer based engineers could get the ultimate in performance the first go around, there would be little need for those doing research and development.
This forum is a great example of backyard engineering. Add a mix of oils, engines, operating conditions and a bit of testing to come up with some sort of conclusion.
By the way, I resemble that remark!!
Chris
I know of a backyard engineer that built parts for the moon shot. He is still alive, lives in my neck of the woods (Florida) and will gladly display the type of components he engineered and built.
Every race team uses that very same type of backyard engineering to push the envelope. If all those lab and computer based engineers could get the ultimate in performance the first go around, there would be little need for those doing research and development.
This forum is a great example of backyard engineering. Add a mix of oils, engines, operating conditions and a bit of testing to come up with some sort of conclusion.
By the way, I resemble that remark!!
Chris
We have bought 4 VW TDI Jetta , My Wife Puts On 150-200 miles a day, We have a 2006 TDI Now , Any Ways I Might not Be Correct but From Day One we have ran Long Rider 15w50 syn Oil,With out any problem, She gets 45-50 mpg ,we never have had a break down or has the cars been in the shop ! Well with the Exception of a Defect Part (iner cooler) Was out of warranty ,But they did reinbursed us later. Im not saying do as i do Just Telling you the story. Gents i have tried most of the oils out there (not all) Long Rider is one of the best i have found ! if you can not find Long Rider Then Amsoil Or Royal Purple Is My 2nd Choice.
Regards,
Col.
Regards,
Col.
If you claim an oil meets a certain spec, please post the data sheets or the oil label picture.
Also, the thread starter wanted a thicker oil for the warmer weather conditions in South Florida, not a thinner 30wt choice.
There is no point in arguing with the 505.01 terrorists. Weren't there some non .01 oils in the UOA section on PD motors? Draw your own conclusion.
I do agree that thicker protects better. See the UOAs concerning 504/507, 506.01 vs 505.01. If not here, check the data at the tdiclub.
Since there are NO thicker 505.01 oils, consider blending in a single quart of a good full synthetic 50wt-60wt race oil. Another option is to just use an oil thickener like VSOT or an equivalent. This way, you'll still have majority 505.01 oil, and noone but you will know that there is an added pint of VSOT, or an added quart of Amsoil 20w50, RL 20w60, RP 20w50, or M1 EP 15w50.
And, I believe there is some relationship between the PD and old school pushrod motors. The original 505.01 oils were nothing but groupIII blends with SJ(hint) levels of additives. Could it be that VW wanted more ZDDP compared to the newer SM oils? Could the PD wear be similar to those non-roller cam-in-block cam-lobe/lifter wear & failures that some complain about when using an SM oil in their hot rod?
If you are NOT a rebel, stick with the required equivalent oil and save your receipts. This is my simple recommendation to prevent and warranty or dealer hassle. Use any oil that mentions 505.01 in their data sheet or bottle label, even if it isn't certified. A smaller company would rather put the money into better basestocks and additives, vs paying a bribe for an OEM approval. I also would rather have a 'recommended' FULL synthetic boutique oil over an OEM approved blend. Your turbo will thank you.
There are several ways to help your engine.
1. Since wear in the diesel seems to increase with thinner oils and longer OCIs, simple change your oil more often. So ignore that 10k OCI recommendation and change it out at 7.5 or 5k. Noone says that you have to wait until 10k. Change the oil out before it shears down and adds wear.
2. Since wear increases with soot/insoluble buildup, definitely consider a bypass filter. This way, if you decide to keep the 10k OCI, you will still have considerably cleaner oil. TP changes(Frantz/Motorguard) every 5k will do wonders to reduce wear.
3. Improve the oil cooling. The easiest way to thicken an oil is to keep it cooler. I understand that there are larger OEM(dieselgeek) oil coolers that can be fitted in place of the stock oil/water heat exchanger. Is the Passat 2.0 TDI cooler larger then the Jetta 1.9 cooler? And, someone mentioned that the dieselgeek cooler is from a V6 Passat AWD.
4. Above all, keep that oil topped off always. Don't wait to be a quart low to add a quart. Check it regularly, learn the engine oil consumption rate(if any), and anticipate future top offs, even if in ounce increments.
Also, the thread starter wanted a thicker oil for the warmer weather conditions in South Florida, not a thinner 30wt choice.
There is no point in arguing with the 505.01 terrorists. Weren't there some non .01 oils in the UOA section on PD motors? Draw your own conclusion.
I do agree that thicker protects better. See the UOAs concerning 504/507, 506.01 vs 505.01. If not here, check the data at the tdiclub.
Since there are NO thicker 505.01 oils, consider blending in a single quart of a good full synthetic 50wt-60wt race oil. Another option is to just use an oil thickener like VSOT or an equivalent. This way, you'll still have majority 505.01 oil, and noone but you will know that there is an added pint of VSOT, or an added quart of Amsoil 20w50, RL 20w60, RP 20w50, or M1 EP 15w50.
And, I believe there is some relationship between the PD and old school pushrod motors. The original 505.01 oils were nothing but groupIII blends with SJ(hint) levels of additives. Could it be that VW wanted more ZDDP compared to the newer SM oils? Could the PD wear be similar to those non-roller cam-in-block cam-lobe/lifter wear & failures that some complain about when using an SM oil in their hot rod?
If you are NOT a rebel, stick with the required equivalent oil and save your receipts. This is my simple recommendation to prevent and warranty or dealer hassle. Use any oil that mentions 505.01 in their data sheet or bottle label, even if it isn't certified. A smaller company would rather put the money into better basestocks and additives, vs paying a bribe for an OEM approval. I also would rather have a 'recommended' FULL synthetic boutique oil over an OEM approved blend. Your turbo will thank you.
There are several ways to help your engine.
1. Since wear in the diesel seems to increase with thinner oils and longer OCIs, simple change your oil more often. So ignore that 10k OCI recommendation and change it out at 7.5 or 5k. Noone says that you have to wait until 10k. Change the oil out before it shears down and adds wear.
2. Since wear increases with soot/insoluble buildup, definitely consider a bypass filter. This way, if you decide to keep the 10k OCI, you will still have considerably cleaner oil. TP changes(Frantz/Motorguard) every 5k will do wonders to reduce wear.
3. Improve the oil cooling. The easiest way to thicken an oil is to keep it cooler. I understand that there are larger OEM(dieselgeek) oil coolers that can be fitted in place of the stock oil/water heat exchanger. Is the Passat 2.0 TDI cooler larger then the Jetta 1.9 cooler? And, someone mentioned that the dieselgeek cooler is from a V6 Passat AWD.
4. Above all, keep that oil topped off always. Don't wait to be a quart low to add a quart. Check it regularly, learn the engine oil consumption rate(if any), and anticipate future top offs, even if in ounce increments.
I wasn't aware of the product you referred to, but I guess what you meant was the 15w40 motor oil, which has an API CI-4 rating. It wouldn't be my first choice -- I think nearly every engine would benefit from a 0wXX or 5wXX motor oil, and that is what VW recommends as well. Whether you ought to switch would depend, I think, on how many cold starts these engines make each day -- one cold start then stick with it probably, several cold starts then change to a different viscosity.
If you have four VW TDIs with the Pumpe Duse injection system, and all using an API-rated motor oil instead of the VW 505.01, then please consider posting more information as they reach higher mileage (150k, 200k miles and more). You may have valuable data to share about engine longevity.
Fascinating-I just bought a New Jetta TDI with 28,000 miles. No idea what was used, but the dealer who sold it to me is a firm believer in 505.01 oil only.
Has anyone ever had a PD engine fail due to improper oil? I can't find any confirmed case.
Thanks!
Has anyone ever had a PD engine fail due to improper oil? I can't find any confirmed case.
Thanks!
Quote:
So you work for VW then? Maybe engineered the Pump Duesse injection system?
I mean you must have if you know the current 505.01 spec for PD's to be inadequate...wait whats that? You have no idea what your talking about, backyard engineering doesn't prove your right only ruins your credibility.
First off, VW "engineered" a terribly unreliable glow plug system, "engineered" a super duper automatic restricting intake manifold system on these cars, "engineered" electrical systems that are lucky to make it 2 years without something going haywire, "engineered" an engine that requires half the engine be disassembled every couple of years to replace a timing belt, "engineered" an entire persnickety high pressure fuel system that apparently eats cam lobes and requires special oil that was obsolete before it even came out, and you're going to tell me that VW has "engineered" an oil that without a doubt the best and only oil that can be used in these engines for maximum longevity? I don't even have to be a backyard engineer to see how many of you guys are being taken for a ride on this one.
Who said 505.01 was inadequate? Oh I am quite sure it is ADEQUATE to get your car to the end of warranty with the emissions systems still intact--just like VW wants it. I don't understand the blood war that the 5 numbers 505.01 invoke in people, and why the folks at tdiclub are so anal about it. Yes I know VW is finicky and people want to protect their warranty. Fine, can't blame anyone there.
But to believe that VW designed and spec'd this oil because it will result in maximum life of your engine is naive at best. OEMs are in the business to sell cars, and car parts. Their main concern when specifying a lubricant is avoiding warranty claims on too many cars by idiots using 5w-30 Pennzoil for 10K OCIs. Since emissions systems are warrantied, the must also protect them, which means reducing valuable antiwear additives in the oil to protect the cat. Then they do some testing on some oils that big companies submit (someone nailed it when they said "bribe" above) to get the approval on their bottle. If it works okay, they approve it, which may or may not be dependent on how much the oil co. is willing to pay to get their approval rights. My guess is VW gets royalty checks monthly from all their approval oils. Oil approvals are shady at best, and if you don't understand that OEMs are not specifying oils for maximum longevity of your vehicle and simply to cover their butts until warranty is up, then arguing with you is pointless because you've obviously bought into their propaganda.
Even the great UOAs on tdiclub from those using non 505.01 oils are met with skepticism and ridicule. All the "You'll lose your warranty, You'll smoke your cam lobes" reminds me of the little boy's mom/teacher/adults in the Christmas Story constantly telling him "You'll shoot your eye out."
I sure don't see what .01 oils have in them to make them such miracle combatants of accelerated cam wear, maybe it's German Mystery Juice? Or is it just the allure of the whole European/German thing?
Schaeffer's 9000 will never meet 505.01 because it is a true HDEO, and will never be mistaken for PCMOs like .01 oils might be. If the stress on oil is so high in a PD TDI, why do people insist that the low-add .01 oils are better? If you're protecting your warranty, fine, just say so and be done with it.
Yes, there are a few confirmed cases of PD engines having camshaft failures due to jiffy lube service. However, even these occured at 90K+
Chris
Chris
Quote:
Quote:
So you work for VW then? Maybe engineered the Pump Duesse injection system?
I mean you must have if you know the current 505.01 spec for PD's to be inadequate...wait whats that? You have no idea what your talking about, backyard engineering doesn't prove your right only ruins your credibility.
First off, VW "engineered" a terribly unreliable glow plug system, "engineered" a super duper automatic restricting intake manifold system on these cars, "engineered" electrical systems that are lucky to make it 2 years without something going haywire, "engineered" an engine that requires half the engine be disassembled every couple of years to replace a timing belt, "engineered" an entire persnickety high pressure fuel system that apparently eats cam lobes and requires special oil that was obsolete before it even came out, and you're going to tell me that VW has "engineered" an oil that without a doubt the best and only oil that can be used in these engines for maximum longevity? I don't even have to be a backyard engineer to see how many of you guys are being taken for a ride on this one.
Who said 505.01 was inadequate? Oh I am quite sure it is ADEQUATE to get your car to the end of warranty with the emissions systems still intact--just like VW wants it. I don't understand the blood war that the 5 numbers 505.01 invoke in people, and why the folks at tdiclub are so anal about it. Yes I know VW is finicky and people want to protect their warranty. Fine, can't blame anyone there.
But to believe that VW designed and spec'd this oil because it will result in maximum life of your engine is naive at best. OEMs are in the business to sell cars, and car parts. Their main concern when specifying a lubricant is avoiding warranty claims on too many cars by idiots using 5w-30 Pennzoil for 10K OCIs. Since emissions systems are warrantied, the must also protect them, which means reducing valuable antiwear additives in the oil to protect the cat. Then they do some testing on some oils that big companies submit (someone nailed it when they said "bribe" above) to get the approval on their bottle. If it works okay, they approve it, which may or may not be dependent on how much the oil co. is willing to pay to get their approval rights. My guess is VW gets royalty checks monthly from all their approval oils. Oil approvals are shady at best, and if you don't understand that OEMs are not specifying oils for maximum longevity of your vehicle and simply to cover their butts until warranty is up, then arguing with you is pointless because you've obviously bought into their propaganda.
Even the great UOAs on tdiclub from those using non 505.01 oils are met with skepticism and ridicule. All the "You'll lose your warranty, You'll smoke your cam lobes" reminds me of the little boy's mom/teacher/adults in the Christmas Story constantly telling him "You'll shoot your eye out."
I sure don't see what .01 oils have in them to make them such miracle combatants of accelerated cam wear, maybe it's German Mystery Juice? Or is it just the allure of the whole European/German thing?
Schaeffer's 9000 will never meet 505.01 because it is a true HDEO, and will never be mistaken for PCMOs like .01 oils might be. If the stress on oil is so high in a PD TDI, why do people insist that the low-add .01 oils are better? If you're protecting your warranty, fine, just say so and be done with it.
This should tell you everything you want to know:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=129373
I post as "GMARK" over at TDI Club.
It tells me more than I needed to know! I just found out my car had non-spec oil in its prior life. I doubt it will make any difference.
Thanks.
The timing belt was changed today. We pulled the valve cover to have a look at the cam and rollers. Everything looks great.
Photos are posted here:
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=25044
The engine has 100,295 miles, with the last 40k on Delvac 1.
A4tdi
I can't see your pictures due to not being registered in clubtdi, but assume everything is Ok with your engine.
I for one think you have probably made the right move to go for a full synthetic oil and here's why.
1.For obvious reasons a full synth should offer better cold start protection and better hot protection.
2.My understanding of oils is that the modern standards of oils actually have less protection against wear due to the requirement for lower emmisions and fuel economy gains making them thinner.
3.A manufacturer of oils that does have VW505.1 and now 506.00 and 01 accreditations informed me that VW didn't even reply to their letters for approval for 505.01 for nearly two years. I believe this was due to tie ins with a manufacturer.
In the thread on clubtdi I noticed a lot of talk about 505.1 and thought people were talking about extended service intervals. The 505.1 is for 10,000m intervals and the 506.1 is for variable intervals.
I would definately not use 506.1 due to it being 0W-30 viscosity. I do believe this would not offer enough protection.
Being in the UK I have seen many PD cars and have not heard of wear problems and know two people that took A3-130PD to over 90k in under two years with no problems at all with the engines.
My Wife now has a Skoda which used the 130PD engine and I now wonder whether to swap from the 505:01 oil the dealer uses to the PAO 0W-40 I use in my car.
Does anyone think a bypass filter would help? The problem here is space is very tight as the car is the same size as the Polo.
I can't see your pictures due to not being registered in clubtdi, but assume everything is Ok with your engine.
I for one think you have probably made the right move to go for a full synthetic oil and here's why.
1.For obvious reasons a full synth should offer better cold start protection and better hot protection.
2.My understanding of oils is that the modern standards of oils actually have less protection against wear due to the requirement for lower emmisions and fuel economy gains making them thinner.
3.A manufacturer of oils that does have VW505.1 and now 506.00 and 01 accreditations informed me that VW didn't even reply to their letters for approval for 505.01 for nearly two years. I believe this was due to tie ins with a manufacturer.
In the thread on clubtdi I noticed a lot of talk about 505.1 and thought people were talking about extended service intervals. The 505.1 is for 10,000m intervals and the 506.1 is for variable intervals.
I would definately not use 506.1 due to it being 0W-30 viscosity. I do believe this would not offer enough protection.
Being in the UK I have seen many PD cars and have not heard of wear problems and know two people that took A3-130PD to over 90k in under two years with no problems at all with the engines.
My Wife now has a Skoda which used the 130PD engine and I now wonder whether to swap from the 505:01 oil the dealer uses to the PAO 0W-40 I use in my car.
Does anyone think a bypass filter would help? The problem here is space is very tight as the car is the same size as the Polo.
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