GON
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Wonder if you offered the f n I guy $300 USD in cash, to just complete the transaction without the crap. Is the f n I guy making over $300 commission on a car buyer? I have no idea.
Outrageous Dealer Add-Ons and Fees - When Will They Learn?
- Thread starter john_pifer
- Start date
No idea. Last couple of buys, he made nadda off me. I just said no, repeatedly. Nice places, nice people, so I didn’t feel a need to resort to threatening to leave or anything. I’m sure they have seen it all, but they were good at looking surprised. Thing is, once you start saying no, they start bringing in the big guns, guys trained to needle you into caving.
I think a doc fee of anything over $500 is bogus, it’s not that much paperwork, but I’m ok with MSRP and something like that. A parking spot costs money (taxes), someone has to wash the car, do PDI, etc. Beyond that… just making someone’s boat payment.
But they wouldn’t do it if it didn’t pay out. These guys have it down to a science. To their defense, it’s a sink or swim business, some months are good, some aren’t. Not that I have sympathy, I think most in sales and marketing sold their souls long ago.
I recently cross shopped a new Odyssey and Sienna. Toyota wanted $5,000 over sticker. I told the sales guy “no thanks” and walked out. They called me a couple months later asking if I was still in the market for a Sienna. I politely told them I’m not considering their dealership anymore due to the $5,000 markup regardless if it was still a thing or not. Don’t play their game. The problem is too many do.
The small local Honda dealer here in NC had the typical padding on the bill but the sales guy we talked to said he was willing to take it off if we didn’t want it. PM me and I can share the dealer if you want to pursue. I did not purchase so no idea how true this is.
The small local Honda dealer here in NC had the typical padding on the bill but the sales guy we talked to said he was willing to take it off if we didn’t want it. PM me and I can share the dealer if you want to pursue. I did not purchase so no idea how true this is.
The strategy I've used to find the best deals on my last couple of vehicles has been to conduct a nation-wide search, using a search engine (AutoTrader has worked for me) to find dealers that are willing to discount their vehicles.
There are a couple of catches - you need to be willing to travel if necessary (I flew to DFW to get the 4Runner, but it was worth it, as I got about $7200 off their initial asking price back in Jan. 2020), and field a lot of calls/emails from dealers.
I set up a dedicated Gmail account that I use only for correspondence with dealers, and a Google Voice account, again, that I use only for communication with dealers. With the Google Voice account, you can set up a different phone number, so as to avoid giving out your real phone number to dealers, and you can screen the calls, requiring the caller to say their name, so that you can see who's calling. You can also set to "do not disturb" for times you don't want to be bugged by salesmen.
This way, I compartmentalize all communication with dealers and can choose how/if I respond.
I ended up emailing approximately 20 dealerships. Some still acted like we were still in "pandemic" times, and responded with MSRP. Others offered some discount. A couple of dealerships simply stopped responding once they realized I was going to be a "tough customer". One dealership out of Knoxville responded that they simply weren't interested in competing "outside of our market" (in response to my reply to their ludicrous offer, in which I informed them that other dealers in other states were discounting by several thousand).
For the Odyssey we just made a deal on, a couple of dealers in CA, IL & TX were advertising approximately $3500 or a bit more, off MSRP, plus taxes & fees, on the AutoTrader site, so I used that to negotiate the price down on the same van at a closer dealership. Like the previous 3 vehicles I've bought, no local dealerships would play ball, or didn't have the vehicle we wanted, so I ended up making a deal with Honda World in Louisville, about a 3.5 hr drive, but doable, and a bit cheaper than flying to IAH or ORD, where I'd have to go to get those deals from another dealership. Plus, I may end up trading the 4Runner with them if we can agree on a value. They're offering $27,000 sight unseen, which, is not great but not horrible, either, especially since I got it for a decent deal.
The deal I just accepted from them matched the offer from another dealership in Galveston (Classic Honda). Classic was at about $46,700 OTD including the roof rails I wanted (on a van that lists for $46,475), so I told Honda World that if they'd get it below $47K OTD with roof rails, I'd buy it. Initially they came back with $48K, then came down to the $47K the next day. We're supposed to drive up next Tuesday to pick it up.
They did end up knocking off the add-ons they had on the sticker addendum that I didn't want to pay for.
Here's the breakdown of our deal:
2024 Odyssey Touring
$45,500 (starting sticker)
$1395 (destination fee)
$46,895 (MSRP without dealer add-ons)
Dealer Add-Ons:
$240 (splash guards)
$190 (trunk/cargo tray)
$346 (all-season floor mats)
$200 (wheel lip moldings)
$499 ("weatherproofing"??)
$75 (nitrogen in tires - LOL)
$527 (roof rails - the only add-on I actually wanted)
$1906 (Total dealer add-ons)
$48,972 (MSRP including dealer add-ons)
$599 (vehicle prep fee)
$149 ("title and notary work")
$49,720 (full original asking price, including dealer fees, before discount)
-$5916 (Dealer Discount)
$43,804 (Sale price, before tax, title, license) (note: tax is not charged on dealer fees)
So, counting dealer fees and add-ons, difference between full asking price ($49,720) and price after discount and before taxes ($43,804) equates to almost a 12% discount. Not as good as the 17% I got off the 4Runner, but decent.
From my research in making this deal, I think it's safe to say that the new car market is softening a bit. Many dealers are now starting to realize that they can't charge markups on vehicles anymore, especially on vehicles that are in good supply (there are over 200 of the Odyssey Touring in black exterior/interior in the country right now). And, in fact, many are starting to even advertise discounts online. Of course, it's different for walk-in customers - they're probably still going to try to hit you for full MSRP if you just walk into the dealership. They realize that the customer who's shopping price online is different, and they will often advertise a discount on sites like Auto Trader. If you go to their dealership website, there will often be a link you click that says, "GET TODAY'S PRICE". This, of course, requires you to enter your email, phone, etc. I found that if I used the link on the Auto Trader site to contact the dealer, I was only required to enter my email address. Then, they would often email me and ask for my phone number, to which I replied, "email is most convenient to me", and continued negotiation via email.
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Thank you john_pifer,I really appreciate your response.I made the mistake of having a dealer give me an appraisal on line.I explained that thats all I wanted as I was scheduled for vocal cord surgery and rehab.I got the appraisal,but non stop calls,I have only a slight whisper.Non stop e-mails.apparently they don't read and understand English.I had answered the original appraisal sales person with my medical condition,he transferred me to a salesman, I had bought a car from, yes 7 years ago.5 years ago,I had bought a car from a different brand.This 7 year previous salesman, that I hadn't talked to,acted like I was a real bud and regular customer.I had to really get rough with him.So thanks john,I have some great ideas,That g-mail,different number is what I might try.
Yeah, I’d suggest just emailing a bunch of different dealers, using the contact link on the Auto Trader site.
Just let them know what you’re looking for, ask for their best out the door price, and just be transparent about the fact that you’re shopping around for best price.
Thinking more about the "documentation fee" on dealer vehicles, I remember when I was hunting down an Town & Country, I used my dealer connections to find an 2012 T&C with DVD player and the good factory radio with 2nd gen Uconnect (I'm blanking on the TLA for the model off the top of my mind). Vehicle was actually a trade, they were going to just send it Manheim, but they were willing to entertain an offer for me. I got it down to 4300 by their wholesale person, then of course their F&I guy wanted to go over it. I walked out on the deal after he was going to charge me an $750 documentation fee and he had nothing to say to defend it.
About 6 months later, I spotted the van at another dealer a few towns over when I was there for work. Spoke with their manager since he had to get payment for the job from him and he told me he bought it from that dealer directly for....2500 and he was only selling it for 3800. I told him my fun, he started laughing and told me that the dealer's paperwork was an tow auction lien!
About 6 months later, I spotted the van at another dealer a few towns over when I was there for work. Spoke with their manager since he had to get payment for the job from him and he told me he bought it from that dealer directly for....2500 and he was only selling it for 3800. I told him my fun, he started laughing and told me that the dealer's paperwork was an tow auction lien!
So-$5,050 was more than you wanted to spend?
What did you actually pay for the vehicle you eventually purchased?
I wanted to keep it under 5000 for sure as its what I had. I ended up finding for 3000 oddly enough an 2010 T&C that just needed tires from an private sale. Took it to where I was working at the time, got a deal on nice Nokians on it for 700ish. Only thing before I really replaced it on it was one of the tie rods and upgraded the radio. Other than that, the now ex-wife has it and still uses it.
Buyers should try to play the game as well. When you show up to pay for the car, deduct your expenses in getting to the dealer to complete the transaction. See how they like that.
I know the vehicle market is adjusting but you still can't get away with that kind of stuff......
I still think you are paying too much in that situation. You know , some dealers don't even charge a doc fee and years ago it didn't exist.
Don't think I disagree, it's not $500 of work. But ultimately it's the out the door price. They can charge me $2k for documentation--if they knocked $3k off MSRP with no bogus ADM. I wouldn't hung up on pricing like that, they can play whatever shell game they want, it's OTD that matters to me.
I can see this as a problem in rural areas. How about True Car, Sams Club and Costco auto buying
Also I know in the case of GM I think you can go right to the manufacturers website and build your own which would then get delivered to your dealer or they will let you know which ones were already built that way and can have it delivered to the dealer.
Also I know in the case of GM I think you can go right to the manufacturers website and build your own which would then get delivered to your dealer or they will let you know which ones were already built that way and can have it delivered to the dealer.
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That looks like the Toyota website. I remember years ago this was discussed by Toyota. The typical person today does not, nor do they know how, nor are they even allowed on say toll roads, to change a tire for a vehicle. And as such, there's no purpose to including it. But to your point, imho the argument is invalid, if it's available as a cost option....for the first time ever we drove around on a donut for 3 weeks on my wife's GM SUV. As a result, I purchased an OE rim for $70 shipped and a 9/32" Michelin Cross Climate 2 for $87 shipped, and created my own full sized spare to keep at home (it took Costco for the 2nd time, 3 weeks to get a tire replaced under road hazard, there is a reason and someone out there likely knows, like it's treated differently).
p.s. my 2007 BMW has never had a spare nor any jack (unless it was stolen by a dealership, they did steal a tow hook adapter and I believe a spare lug bolt, because most customers don't take their cars to the dealer then check if they stole anything)
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aha!! Same experience, 2X, at Costco. First time the leak was slow enough to keep filling, but tire couldn't be patched. Second time totally flat, so unusuable, and we drove around 3 weeks on the donut which is not a good situation. I always tried to keep it at the speed limit and stayed to my right. One time last Sun. someone honked at me hahahahahaha for doing the speed limit. This is why I built my own full sized spare with an OE alloy rim (2011 so $70 shipped, and grade B from MS[trending at $105 and grade C or D]).
