Older Detroit 2 stroke specs 40 weight ONLY

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Okay ..I picked this up from the Rotella board.

There a guy who takes care of an old church bus that's got a 6v-92 DD. It drinks straight 40weight oil. He has a hard time finding this on the road and can't typically carry enough with him on a long trip. Apparently there's an oil consumption "spec" in this engine.

Anyway ..is a multivisc (15w-40) acceptable for this application? If not ..why not??

Opinions???
 
I recall from a friend who used to maintain these old Detroit 2-strokes that it has to do with ash content. It's a very well documented mode of failure if an oil doesn't meet the ash spec.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Okay ..I picked this up from the Rotella board.

There a guy who takes care of an old church bus that's got a 6v-92 DD. It drinks straight 40 weight oil. He has a hard time finding this on the road and can't typically carry enough with him on a long trip. Apparently there's an oil consumption "spec" in this engine.

Anyway ..is a multivisc (15w-40) acceptable for this application? If not ..why not??

Opinions???


The DD 2 stroke diesels are hard on oil. I previously believed that 15W-40 was OK because that's what the military uses in them and DDC recommends for their military 6V92s. Turns out the only reason they do that is because the military twists their arm a lot.

Here is a DDC tech paper on the topic. They are hard over about straight 40 or 50 weight.

DDC Lube requirements

See page 2-3 table 2-2.

What does he have packed in that bus that he can't fit in a few gallons of 40 weight??
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These engines sludge severely, have him try Auto-Rx with a straight 40w from Chevron or other high quality DD certified oil and let us know how that works.

It may be too far gone mechanically if it has been this way a while. i.e. may have cracked rings or ring from inadequate lube or sludge/soot.

I would install a fresh oil filter for the RX treament and use 2 ounces per qt capacity. Run about 1500 miles, change oil and filter. Use Fuel Power by Lubecontrol to moderate the fuel side soot development.

If oil consumption slows then LC can be employed at 2 ounces per qt capacity to help keep clean and assist the oil in this 2 cycle diesel.

TD
 
Allegedly this is supposed to consume 1 gallon for every 10 hours of operation. I guess if the church is on a REALLY long trip (I truly can't imagine taking a multi-1000 mile trip at any speed below 55-60 ...that he has to carry SOOOOooooooooo much oil with him/them that it's impractical. Dr. Detroit
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Allegedly this is supposed to consume 1 gallon for every 10 hours of operation.

They use a lot, but a gallon per 10 hours sounds high. Maybe that's the old limit for warranty work, the DDC equivilant of new car manufatuers refusing to fix a car that uses less than 1 qt/1000 miles.

Even if it is right, the high consumption will be at high power outputs. 10 hours at highway speeds is over 500 miles. I think I couuld find a place to stow 10 one gallon jugs of oil on a bus.
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In the long run, the church will save money by buying their oil by the barrel and carrying it on the bus in smaller containers. One gallon containers would work nicely on the road.

That said, most church busses have seen better days, and you did say "old" church bus. Maybe they need a tanker trailer
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Gary,

The oil he needs is more than just straight 40. It is API Service Category CF-2 40 wt. That oil is made for the Detroit 2-stroke engines. It should be available everywhere heavy diesel products are sold. He can certainly buy a case or two of gallons and carry it with him.

Yes, those engines have high oil consumption. That is normal, and more so when worn. I remember running one Detroit engine where we just added a gallon a day and checked it weekly. The gallon daily was just right. The engine was running a generator and we did not want to stop it to check the oil. It didn't have the oil bullseye it should have had to check the level, and when the dipstick was pulled out while running, you got a faceful of oil.

Auto-Rx would work well, but with the 6 gallon or 10 gallon sump, the cost is probably prohibitive. Schaeffer's Neutra would be an affordable way to clean the engine internals. As already said, the engine is probably thrashed and well past overhaul time.


Ken
 
Thank you all for you comments. I'm trying to route the guy over here from the Rotella borad. He didn't have an email address ..so I PM'd him.

Yes, Auto-Rx would be an expensive purge here ..but then again ..if the oil consumption can get under control
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I would imagine a chasis as large as a bus should have room for an auxillary sump ..something in the 15 to 20 gallon range.
 
OK, I am the guy from the Rotella forum Gary mentioned. Thanks, Gary for your help. This thread, and the other one you referred me to were helpful, as well as other threads on this board.

First, let me clarify. When I said "old bus" I meant old in the sense that it is old enough to have come from the OEM with a 6V-92 DD 2 cycle engine, as opposed to newer busses that come with real engines. Actually, it has rather low miles for it's age, which is just over 20 years old, just a pup for a bus, and not much older than some of my personal vehicles out in the driveway.

Second, it is a seater, with three huge luggage compartments, so I can carry more oil than most jobbers stock in the grade I need.

But that is the problem. When I have enough spare cases of oil, I can and do carry several gallon jugs at a time. I use Shell Rotella. This is because I never see 40 wt in the truck stops any more, and believe me, I look.

When I run low, however, and I can't find it at my retailer, (who doesn't stock it) and he can't get any from his warehouse (who doesn't stock it, either) or the jobber they buy from, (he doesn't keep much of it) then I am stuck, which doesn't happen often, but it does from time to time. 40 wt just seems to be harder and harder to find.

That is why I wanted to know my alternatives, and based on the replies given above, there aren't many. As a last resort, I do still see 30 wt. in the truck stops, so a gallon of this from time to time would be better than running it low on oil.

The third point, I did see in writing somewhere, and I don't care to retrack the research to find it again that the "rated" oil consumption for these types of DD engines is one gallon for every 10 hrs of operation. Operation was not specified as driving at the speed limit, and in a bus operation situation, a 600 mile RT to take the youth to a theme park, with the associated (high) idling time at rest stops, meal stops, and even at the park so the driver can get a nap (to keep the AC or heat running) can easily exceed 10 hrs of engine operation. So it can be a lot less than 1000 miles, which does happen from time to time as well. (Love those ski trips out west)

This is our fourth bus with a 2 cycle DD, and the gallon per 10 hrs has been pretty consistent throughout that history.

While you would think that a bus frame is a cavernous place, actually there is really very little usable space for a "oil storage place". Additionally, I would love to buy bulk oil in 55 gallon drums, but alas, the church lacks a freight loading dock, so getting a heavy drum off the back of a freight trailer is problematic.

Hence the reasons I am stuck with carrying adequate individual gallon containers of 40w, and am (was) seeking alternatives.

I am going to have to do some more research on the Auto-RX, as I was not familiar with that product. Sounds like I would benefit from it.

Any input anyone wants to give me on this would be appreciated. I went to their website link from this forum last night, but could not tell if it was available through retail outlets or not.

Any downsides to Auto-RX??? The parts of the engine I have had open (valve covers off, air box covers off, etc.) don't show a lot of sludge build up, but that doesn't mean that the deep internals aren't sludged up.

Thanks Gary for putting me onto this website. I found a lot of valuable information while waiting for my registration to be approved.

rmw
 
Royal Purple has a 40 weight oil for your Detroit Diesel if you have the Series 149 engine. It is the 40DD CF-2 and has a Sulfated Ash of 0.72% and Zinc of 812PPM.

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CF-2 30 wt. diesel engine oil is recommended for Detroit 2-strokes in cold weather.

I'd suggest stashing cases of gallon jugs anywhere you can around the bus. You're certainly correct about fewer and fewer engines using straight wt. oil. Even the local eathermoving contractors that buy old machinery at auction have very few Detroits. They are still widely used on the waterfront, however. If you're near any commercial boating areas, check suppliers there.

That engine does need CF-2 40 wt. For example, Chevron Delo 400 40 wt. is not CF-2 and not right for that engine. Chevron Delo 100 40 wt. is what you'd need. Shell RotellaT Single Grade is CF-2. No harm in mixing brands as long as it is the correct spec.

Schaeffer #107 40 wt. would be the oil of my choice. It'll give maybe 300-350 hours per oil change instead of the usual 150, along with less wear and cleaner engine internals. This is a CF-2 oil for Detroits.

Detroit has their strict guidelines for the maximum sulfated ash content in the oil, but in some cases that can be reconsidered. Magnesium detergent compounds result in an ash that is abrasive, so they need to follow a low limit. Calcium detergent compounds result in an ash that is soft, fluffy, and oil soluble, so a higher ash content is no problem. This is not reflected in Detroit's specs.


Ken
 
quote:

Originally posted by rmw:
OK, I am the guy from the Rotella forum Gary mentioned. Thanks, Gary for your help. This thread, and the other one you referred me to were helpful, as well as other threads on this board.
rmw


rmw,

Have you considered the possability of an aircraft oil?

Shell makes streight weight oils for piston engines in 40 and 50 weight, (w80 and w100).

These are low ash dispersent oils and are not that expensive. If you have a Shell distributer nearby
they can fill you in on what is available.

Just a thought,

Wayne
 
Wayne,

No, I never even considered aircraft grade oil. Since I often have to go to the Shell wholesaler to pick up my oil for my retailer (instead of waiting for it to be delivered to the retail location) when I am out there again I will ask.

Steve,

I once owned a trucking company about 25 years ago, and I can't remember why I soured on Delo, but I did, and have been a Shell Rotella T fan ever since.

I will look and see, however, upon your suggestion to see if straight 40 wt is available in Delo in the truckstops. (I drive a diesel PU as one of my personal vehicles, so I am in them occasionally.)

My original question in the Rotella forum was seeking a way around the tedious warehousing I have to do in order to keep a supply of the oil I use, and as fast as that thing goes through oil, if Delo is the answer, then I might just do it. Thanks for the suggestion.

rmw
 
rmw, I second the Schaeffers 40w DD oil idea from Ken2. That is a great oil and if the Church could buy it in at least $250 lots it would be a good alternative and get free shipping.

While the Auto-RX may be a bit pricey it is very effective on this ring design and Frank Miller has been looking for a Diesel test to analyze. This may be a good opportunity for both of you.

Contact Frank Miller at Auto-RX.com and tell him I sent you. I could custom protocal a treatment for the engine and as long as we don't have a cracked ring, RX may be a great source of increased ring seal for the old girl.

Terry
 
Terry,

I am a fan of Schaeffer products. I posted a reply in another thread on this board regarding LE products in an axle I import that has planetary gear hubs. This axle will trash the poor quality oils, and will give the good ones a good test. I had contact with Schaeffer in those days (all this fun happened about 20 years ago) and I came away with great respect for them and their products. I will look into it.

Regarding the Auto-rx, I will follow through and contact them on your say so. I am a Mechanical Engineer in my day job, so I am familiar with testing methods, record keeping, etc., so I might bring something to the table too.

Thanks,

rmw
 
quote:

Thanks, Gary for your help. This thread, and the other one you referred me to were helpful, as well as other threads on this board.

Glad that I could send you in the right direction!!
..and..
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rmw,

Just a reminder, many straight 40 wt. diesel engine oils are wrong for that engine. Chevron Delo 100 40wt would be correct. Chevron Delo 400 40wt is the wrong oil. You'll find somewhat the same thing in any oil you look at...Havoline, Citgo, Shell's Pennzoil, etc.

If the oil label says CF-2 and 40 wt., you've got the right stuff. It will be better to mix brands than to mix CF-2 and non-CF-2 oil.

Regarding the Schaeffer, with the amount those engines burn you might as well get the cheaper all-petroleum oil (#107) than the costlier synthetic blend oil (#703). If consumption was lower, I'd always pick the syn blend.


Ken
 
quote:

Additionally, I would love to buy bulk oil in 55 gallon drums, but alas, the church lacks a freight loading dock, so getting a heavy drum off the back of a freight trailer is problematic.

I'm not one of the oil experts here, but I can comment on the unloading problem...
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My company handles drums of many different types and various contents, and when a customer has no dock or forklift there is a trick we use to unload a drum of oil onto the ground...It may sound strange, but bear with me.

First have him back the trailer onto gravel just to be safe, then put down two tractor-trailer tires overlapped front to back just below the edge of the trailer, then just push the drum off onto the tires. The drum should land and roll to the side, unharmed. Then just get the driver to help you lift it upright. These drums are actually very tough when new...
 
My local wrench buys bulk oil. The local distributor has a truck that has a lift gate on it. I mean most dealerships don't have a loading dock or a fork lift either. How do they handle 55-gallong drums
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