oil pressure or oil thickness...timing chain life.

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To the OP

From a reliability perspective on chain drives there are several things that can be done to increase overall service life but they are usually severely limited in practice because of the effort to benefit ratio in terms of cost, time etc. so even if possible may not be worth the effort.

A little primer on chains here (good information if nothing else)

From my perspective (Mechanical Engineering) a chain is a chain is a chain. They all function identically regardless of the application and have the same failure modes. In my career I have done everything from application engineering, detailed failure analysis, finite element analysis and applicable predictive/NDT techniques to monitor in service. It always boils down to the same failure modes just in different percentages depending on the application and maintenance of the machine in question.

Over the years I have worked with every chain and sprocket manufacturer there is over a multitude of industrial applications. Very little changes and little can be done to extend their life but not because the technology is not there but the cost of the maintenance and tensioning systems often exceeds the cost of replacing the chains so they give minimal maintenance and basically run to fail. (a business decision, not a maintenance decision)

First we have to be on the same page regarding terminology because engineering terms and conversational terms often contradict and confuse.

Chains do not stretch (that is a misnomer), they elongate due to a combination of pin wear and roller wear increasing clearance on critical tolerances. This wear is a result of a combination of factors. (For a baseline purposes, this is assuming new chains/sprockets and not a combination of new and worn items in a proper application. When new and worn components are on the same run, accelerated wear and short lifespan is a guaranteed certainty and not considered a failure mode of the chain or sprocket because that is a human decision outside the functional properties of the components)

They are: (in no particular order)

Load on the chain (not to be confused with tension) [in cases where the application is correctly engineered- the main focus is on shock loading rather than continuous loading]

Tension of the chain (not to be confused with load)

Pin lubrication/contamination (internal to the roller)

Roller lubrication/contamination (relative to the roller/sprocket)

Misalignment of the sprocket/chain (static or dynamic)

Worn components (beyond the scope of this discussion)

Almost universally the major cause of elongation and enabler of overall wear is loss of lubrication of the pin. Even with solid lubricants, o ring chains and a variety of metallurgies- this is going to happen eventually. It would surprise a lot of people that regardless of how much oil/grease you put ON a chain, little to none of it will work into the pin. Only total immersion systems or soaking will accomplish this adequately. The problem with that is that these systems are messy and are loss systems so they add cost. Manual soaking is time and labor intensive (in terms of maintenance hours as well as downtime).

I do virtually nothing on cars or other rolling stock (other than for me personally) but the automotive timing chain is no mechanically or functionally different than any timing chain arrangement on any other machine on Earth so what I am about to say is directly applicable.

The major problem you are going to encounter (just like I encounter) is that most reliability solutions are going to require modifications to the machine that are either too costly or not realistically possible when measured against the replacement cost of the chain group.

Lubrication (sprocket to chain)- oils as a general rule are not EP lubricants and when you are talking the metal to metal contact during tooth integration as experienced on a sprocket, modern tribology doesn’t have a formula (chemistry or application) that will effectively mitigate that effect.

Splashing, pouring or sumping will not withstand the force encountered when the metal contacts the metal. You can slow it but not arrest it to any significant degree. The only known technology that is effective is oil mist but that’s not practical in this type of application.

(It is significantly different on a gear set but that’s because of the tooth geometry, contact area and oil galley formed at the root- sprockets and chains don’t have this)

Lubrication ( pin to roller)- given the tight tolerances of the average roller chain, even emersion systems don’t have the ability to get in there much because of the RPM ( contact and soak time), Clearances of the components (ability to get in there while under dynamic load, i.e. running) and finally centrifugal forces wanting to sling the oil off. (Not to mention the pin opening and closing the clearance creating a pumping effect)

Alignment- depending on the TIR of the crank and cam and their relative alignment, this is rarely correctible even when detected but should be checked.

Tension- “load” (defined as the force of the driven components) is never a factor with a properly specified chain/sprocket set up but “slapping” of the roller/tooth due to uneven tension causes more damage than lubrication ever will. This changes the sprocket geometry and root gap and once created cannot be altered. (Everyone in the business has seen the “wallowed” sprocket)

Sprockets like gears only have load on 3 teeth at any one time at the incoming run. The rest of the chain just rides. As the gaps open and the teeth brads/wears this arrangement changes to the point where there is random tension all over the chain during the engagement.

Once this condition appears, no known technology or lubricant can mitigate it other than full replacement.

In short, every mechanical reliability engineer I know has done everything possible (in the field and under laboratory controlled destructive testing) to reduce this type wear and the answer is always the same. The cost of specialty heat/cold treatment, alloy recipes, lubrication systems, machine modifications et al far exceed the replacement costs of the chains/sprockets.

The best solution (when feasible) is to upgrade to a timing belt/poly chain but depending on the bearing arrangement, shaft diameter and tensioning ability this isn’t always the best answer either.

If anyone ever does come up with an effective cost beneficial method to reduce this type wear, he or she will become the richest person on this planet.
 
I've posted on this before.

Chains are very sensitive to particulates in the lubricant. This has been known for at least 100 years. Immersed industrial chains last longest with 30 or 40 viscosity oil. Again, very clean oil adds greatly to chain life. Non immersed chains last longest with very high viscosity oils, as thinner oils "disappear" more rapidly.

I'd speculate that European cars with extended oil change intervals suffer excessive chain wear, at least partly due to micro particulates. This is born out by GM's reduction of oil change intervals on certain engines with "in warranty" chain wear problems.

Long chains are not more subject to wear for a given amount of work. As each link does less work.

Bottom line:

30 viscosity
Clean oil
plenty of oil flow
 
Well said.. I learned a lot from several posts here. Wow.. Very high level thought and knowledge level around here.
smile.gif
 
The application such as valve spring tension and the overall length of the chain ( more links to wear) will have the greatest effect on whether the chain starts to get slack. If you insist on worrying about something, I would be concerned about rod and crank bearing wear.
 
Last edited:
Oil pressure has nothing to do with wear unless there is a malfunction, as there are no pressure-lubricated parts in the engine. As long as there is no malfunction-related loss of oil pressure (faulty oil pump, oil leak, etc.), less the oil pressure (thinner the oil), the better it is.

Thicker oil is usually better for less wear but you can safely go with the lowest viscosity recommended, in fact probably even lower. Quality additives (trinuclear moly etc.) as well as quality of the oil (certain Group V base stocks etc.) can make up for the lower oil-film strength of thinner oil to the point that you don't see much difference in wear -- even less wear with some high-quality 0W-20 than with some thicker oil is possible.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I've posted on this before.

Chains are very sensitive to particulates in the lubricant. This has been known for at least 100 years. Immersed industrial chains last longest with 30 or 40 viscosity oil. Again, very clean oil adds greatly to chain life. Non immersed chains last longest with very high viscosity oils, as thinner oils "disappear" more rapidly.

I'd speculate that European cars with extended oil change intervals suffer excessive chain wear, at least partly due to micro particulates. This is born out by GM's reduction of oil change intervals on certain engines with "in warranty" chain wear problems.

Long chains are not more subject to wear for a given amount of work. As each link does less work.

Bottom line:

30 viscosity
Clean oil
plenty of oil flow


+1 Honda has had some chain issues they attribute to too long of an OCI using the OLM system. Which is why I change oil at 5000 and always will.
 
Originally Posted By: ISO55000
To the OP

From a reliability perspective on chain drives there are several things that can be done to increase overall service life but they are usually severely limited in practice because of the effort to benefit ratio in terms of cost, time etc. so even if possible may not be worth the effort.

A little primer on chains here (good information if nothing else)

From my perspective (Mechanical Engineering) a chain is a chain is a chain. They all function identically regardless of the application and have the same failure modes. In my career I have done everything from application engineering, detailed failure analysis, finite element analysis and applicable predictive/NDT techniques to monitor in service. It always boils down to the same failure modes just in different percentages depending on the application and maintenance of the machine in question.

Over the years I have worked with every chain and sprocket manufacturer there is over a multitude of industrial applications. Very little changes and little can be done to extend their life but not because the technology is not there but the cost of the maintenance and tensioning systems often exceeds the cost of replacing the chains so they give minimal maintenance and basically run to fail. (a business decision, not a maintenance decision)

First we have to be on the same page regarding terminology because engineering terms and conversational terms often contradict and confuse.

Chains do not stretch (that is a misnomer), they elongate due to a combination of pin wear and roller wear increasing clearance on critical tolerances. This wear is a result of a combination of factors. (For a baseline purposes, this is assuming new chains/sprockets and not a combination of new and worn items in a proper application. When new and worn components are on the same run, accelerated wear and short lifespan is a guaranteed certainty and not considered a failure mode of the chain or sprocket because that is a human decision outside the functional properties of the components)

They are: (in no particular order)

Load on the chain (not to be confused with tension) [in cases where the application is correctly engineered- the main focus is on shock loading rather than continuous loading]

Tension of the chain (not to be confused with load)

Pin lubrication/contamination (internal to the roller)

Roller lubrication/contamination (relative to the roller/sprocket)

Misalignment of the sprocket/chain (static or dynamic)

Worn components (beyond the scope of this discussion)

Almost universally the major cause of elongation and enabler of overall wear is loss of lubrication of the pin. Even with solid lubricants, o ring chains and a variety of metallurgies- this is going to happen eventually. It would surprise a lot of people that regardless of how much oil/grease you put ON a chain, little to none of it will work into the pin. Only total immersion systems or soaking will accomplish this adequately. The problem with that is that these systems are messy and are loss systems so they add cost. Manual soaking is time and labor intensive (in terms of maintenance hours as well as downtime).

I do virtually nothing on cars or other rolling stock (other than for me personally) but the automotive timing chain is no mechanically or functionally different than any timing chain arrangement on any other machine on Earth so what I am about to say is directly applicable.

The major problem you are going to encounter (just like I encounter) is that most reliability solutions are going to require modifications to the machine that are either too costly or not realistically possible when measured against the replacement cost of the chain group.

Lubrication (sprocket to chain)- oils as a general rule are not EP lubricants and when you are talking the metal to metal contact during tooth integration as experienced on a sprocket, modern tribology doesn’t have a formula (chemistry or application) that will effectively mitigate that effect.

Splashing, pouring or sumping will not withstand the force encountered when the metal contacts the metal. You can slow it but not arrest it to any significant degree. The only known technology that is effective is oil mist but that’s not practical in this type of application.

(It is significantly different on a gear set but that’s because of the tooth geometry, contact area and oil galley formed at the root- sprockets and chains don’t have this)

Lubrication ( pin to roller)- given the tight tolerances of the average roller chain, even emersion systems don’t have the ability to get in there much because of the RPM ( contact and soak time), Clearances of the components (ability to get in there while under dynamic load, i.e. running) and finally centrifugal forces wanting to sling the oil off. (Not to mention the pin opening and closing the clearance creating a pumping effect)

Alignment- depending on the TIR of the crank and cam and their relative alignment, this is rarely correctible even when detected but should be checked.

Tension- “load” (defined as the force of the driven components) is never a factor with a properly specified chain/sprocket set up but “slapping” of the roller/tooth due to uneven tension causes more damage than lubrication ever will. This changes the sprocket geometry and root gap and once created cannot be altered. (Everyone in the business has seen the “wallowed” sprocket)

Sprockets like gears only have load on 3 teeth at any one time at the incoming run. The rest of the chain just rides. As the gaps open and the teeth brads/wears this arrangement changes to the point where there is random tension all over the chain during the engagement.

Once this condition appears, no known technology or lubricant can mitigate it other than full replacement.

In short, every mechanical reliability engineer I know has done everything possible (in the field and under laboratory controlled destructive testing) to reduce this type wear and the answer is always the same. The cost of specialty heat/cold treatment, alloy recipes, lubrication systems, machine modifications et al far exceed the replacement costs of the chains/sprockets.

The best solution (when feasible) is to upgrade to a timing belt/poly chain but depending on the bearing arrangement, shaft diameter and tensioning ability this isn’t always the best answer either.

If anyone ever does come up with an effective cost beneficial method to reduce this type wear, he or she will become the richest person on this planet.



Thank you! And keep posting!
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Long chains are not more subject to wear for a given amount of work. As each link does less work.


I see no logic behind this statement. If you are pulling on a rope you will need the same force to move a given load whatever the length of the rope. A duplex (or triplex or more) chain will reduce the loads on each link.

I take the point that forcing lubrication between the rollers and links is effectively impossible in an automotive engine, however the oil does an important job in removing heat.

Claud.
 
Originally Posted By: Claud
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Long chains are not more subject to wear for a given amount of work. As each link does less work.


I see no logic behind this statement. If you are pulling on a rope you will need the same force to move a given load whatever the length of the rope. A duplex (or triplex or more) chain will reduce the loads on each link.

I take the point that forcing lubrication between the rollers and links is effectively impossible in an automotive engine, however the oil does an important job in removing heat.

Claud.


A longer chain will last longer is some situations. Imagine two sprockets a mile apart and the sprockets are turned 10 revolutions, very little of the chain has come into contact with a sprocket and most of the chain has remained straight without any rotation of the pins. Same sprockets next to each other and turned 10 times, all of the chain has struck the sprockets and the pins have rotated several times.

Doesn't really apply to automotive applications.
 
Originally Posted By: ISO55000
Lubrication (sprocket to chain)- oils as a general rule are not EP lubricants and when you are talking the metal to metal contact during tooth integration as experienced on a sprocket, modern tribology doesn’t have a formula (chemistry or application) that will effectively mitigate that effect.


Additives exist, in the EP and AW categories to help chain lube. Aftermarket chlorinated parrafins, esters of different types, ceramic boron or other nano particles do the job.

EP additives and AW additives in motor oil are similar in concept. ZDDP starts working at warm oil temperatures and high pressures. Titanium AW additives too. Cam lobes need the AW film laid down, so compounds to do that are already there in engine oil. GF-6 coming will have chain elongation tests.

A lot of tech papers and oil companies talk about moly being used to plate onto parts at 1 micron particle sizes, which is small enough to get into chain pin clearances and surface imperfections. Also boron AW additives, often in oil.
 
my review on this subject showed mostly two things: particulates (mostly applicable to diesels) and ZDDP levels. timing chains is the main reason why API still has the minimum on the ZDDP levels.
 
Originally Posted By: ISO55000
Chains do not stretch (that is a misnomer), they elongate due to a combination of pin wear and roller wear increasing clearance on critical tolerances.
smirk.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ISO55000
Chains do not stretch (that is a misnomer), they elongate due to a combination of pin wear and roller wear increasing clearance on critical tolerances.


I like that word "misnomer." Don't get to hear it very often.
smile.gif
 
Hi,

Perhaps I didn’t the meaning clear in my earlier post or not enough detail because this is a blog, not a scientific forum so often information is left out for brevity.

I also know there is a lot of incorrect and misleading information out there so let me clarify some points. Also, these comments are in context specifically to the part of my post you are quoting and your statements, not general commentary per se.

What I posted is empirical fact- measured in laboratory and field testing, validated and falsified by myself and thousands of others so this isn’t new. It is not an “opinion” or true/false subject to popular vote.

You are bringing up some good points that clients often bring so let me comment on a few you brought up.

Additives exist, in the EP and AW categories to help chain lube. Aftermarket chlorinated parrafins, esters of different types, ceramic boron or other nano particles do the job.

Sure they do “the job” (which is indefinable) but let me point out that “helping” is a meaningless word and not really applicable because if they cannot access the pins in a 100% fashion the only thing they are “helping” is rust formation.

Under most normal operating conditions, without injected or misted delivery the time coefficient during application until centrifugal and mechanical forces act on the lubricant. All of those additives work great- too bad they never get to the business part of the chain.

I measure these tests with high speed cameras and thermal imaging when we test these- you can actually see where the lubricant goes. Probably 1-2% will make it to the pins- that’s why they wear like they do. Then we disassemble and run air gauge and finish changes on the surfaces.

That’s the final nail in the anecdotal coffin.

On the external side (tooth to sprocket) regardless of what marketing firms and armchair tribologists think, tribology is an imperfect science as well as I stated earlier that no currently known chemistry or application can inhibit surface to surface contact (in any meaningful way) UNLESS and UNTIL the lubricant volume relative to the overall surface dimension has sufficient accumulation to remain present in relation to the force and time of the contact in correlation to the extrusion time. (Same formula just like we determine gear lubrication for various loading scenarios).

No chain/sprocket relationship can be calculated like that because the contact profile (geometry and surface) relationship relative to the RPM won’t allow it in any meaningful way. Running in a bath buys you some time but the impact damage is still there.

The hyperbolic curve is as that wear pattern increases- the benefits of ANY lubrication recipe decreases exponentially regardless of the amount of snake oil, fairy dust or unicorn gel in it or even if you go to Amazon and spend a zillion dollars and buy a chain/sprocket set made out of 100% weapons grade unobtainium.

That’s not an “opinion” that’s a fact of physics. Too much motion for the lotion to overcome once it starts.

(And that’s with me being a field one because one part of being a lubrication engineer is to understand the science of oils as they would work in a given application even though I don’t work in the lab. The lab guys usually don’t work in the field because they don’t know the machines. That’s why we discuss things often symbiotically as a team.)

Here’s the same exact test we use to illustrate this point. (More or less for demonstration scenarios to illustrate the actual lab testing) Coat a chain and sprocket with any number of chemical/Prussian dyes. (Soak to the pins if you wish). Dunk it in oil and run it. Everywhere you see the coating gone is where the mechanical forces, contact surfaces, edges etc. overcame the wedge and EP capability of the lubricant.

As far as tech papers and oil companies- tech papers to us professionals is more of a career development requirement because for our licenses we need to do X hours and get credits for authorship. That’s how much most of them are worth.

Moly (or anything else) doesn’t plate anything (they use terms like that to be deliberately misleading without actually telling you a lie) - the moly (and most other Nano type lubricants) is just small enough to BED (somewhat) in the micron finish of the surface and create a slick surface for a WHILE. What they don’t tell you is that that coating is just that weak too and won’t survive a true contact. That is also not an indicator of ability to penetrate (despite them wanting to “entice” you into believing it is without actually saying it because then they could be held liable.)

It won’t “get in” whether its 1µm or .00000000001 µm unless the ratios outlined above allow for it because of the forces being exerted against the lubricant.
Here’s an example: Many companies advertise their penetrants can get in a millionth of an inch (capillary action), fine but when a fastener is tensioned there is ZERO clearance but they want that illusion without actually saying it.

Remember, people in my field complete the lubrication circle because we use the actual field& failure data along with controlled testing to go back to the OEM (machine and/or lubrication) with scientific recommendations to change, upgrade or modify things. We don’t have the luxury of using anecdotal or “marketing” language or techniques- we have to outline our entire DOE and measure each step then certify it. Then often we have to defend it (sometimes in arbitration/court against people who are our peers seeking to protect the company they are contracted to if a failure is involved)

So, in summary:

Chains are what they are and they are going to wear due to the factors outlined above.

H/C Treatment, metallurgy, tension and lubrication are the best ways to increase service life. What the correct mixture is is application specific.

If the lubrication delivery is not sufficient to overcome the application specific forces exerted then most of the lubrication “on” the chain will not make it “in” the chain (the only place it matters)

All marketing claims and anecdotal claims regardless of how deeply held must give way to applicable physics

P.S. I notice you refer to the soon to be whatever GF-6 and maybe that’s part of any misunderstanding. Automotive being what it is, it is well known that the SAE, ILSAC, QS 9000 tests, standards and requirements generally are too low to be acceptable in most industrial applications of the same class. If I were not a professional member of the SAE for many years, I wouldn’t even know about the differences but they are there.

Hope that cleared up any misunderstanding I may have caused by not being more clear.
 
Thanks ISO55000 for the explanation.
I know that in the motorcycle world and their o-ring sealed chains, there are literally thousands of chain lubricating products, all claiming to do all sorts of wonderful things, but I also know that there are plenty of guys that get very good chain life by simply keeping the chains clean and rust free with something like WD40.
Your explanation pretty much confirms that all those "speciality" chain lubes are nothing but snake oil.
 
I don't know if I buy into all that. In the real world, something like bar and chain oil will definitely make a chainsaw chain last longer than used motor oil, so the lubricant has to be protecting the wear points significantly. Also, GM and as another poster stated Honda had issues with extended drain intervals and chain wear, so the oil in that case is definitely getting into the wear areas and protecting also.
 
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