We need these filters cut! All we know now is they didn't grenade and were apparently still filtering at the end of the OCI. I'd like to see if they were nearly loaded or otherwise tetering on the brink of physical failure.
Oil filter duration of use
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Originally Posted By: dnewton3
- Most of you choose a filter based upon inputs; syn media this, end-cap that, leaf versus coil spring, etc. Blah, blah, blah ...
- I choose a filter based upon it's ability to affect outputs; how does it actually perform, and does the selection of different inputs actually show causation in output differential?
After all I've read and leaned about oil filter, I choose the PureOne to meet all of "my criteria" - no real blah, blah, blah - and all based on test data, not "internet rumors".
Good construction with metal end caps and center tube, silicone ADBV, excellent efficiency, flows well and decent price point. What else do ya really need in a filter?
Thanks for the info.
- Most of you choose a filter based upon inputs; syn media this, end-cap that, leaf versus coil spring, etc. Blah, blah, blah ...
- I choose a filter based upon it's ability to affect outputs; how does it actually perform, and does the selection of different inputs actually show causation in output differential?
After all I've read and leaned about oil filter, I choose the PureOne to meet all of "my criteria" - no real blah, blah, blah - and all based on test data, not "internet rumors".
Good construction with metal end caps and center tube, silicone ADBV, excellent efficiency, flows well and decent price point. What else do ya really need in a filter?
Thanks for the info.
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
We need these filters cut! All we know now is they didn't grenade and were apparently still filtering at the end of the OCI. I'd like to see if they were nearly loaded or otherwise tetering on the brink of physical failure.
^ This. Part of a full methodical approach would only include a visual of what we can tear down. In this case the filters are easily opened up. If they aren't falling apart I will further convinced.
We need these filters cut! All we know now is they didn't grenade and were apparently still filtering at the end of the OCI. I'd like to see if they were nearly loaded or otherwise tetering on the brink of physical failure.
^ This. Part of a full methodical approach would only include a visual of what we can tear down. In this case the filters are easily opened up. If they aren't falling apart I will further convinced.
dnewton3
Staff member
I will make an effort to get pix in a few days; I believe the filter is still sitting on the drain tub.
I do not have a tube-type cutter; I have to hack at mine the old fassioned way, so you'll have to be willing to accept some metal fragments near the end in the visualization. Unless someone wants to offer to buy me a filter cutter ...
I do not have a tube-type cutter; I have to hack at mine the old fassioned way, so you'll have to be willing to accept some metal fragments near the end in the visualization. Unless someone wants to offer to buy me a filter cutter ...
I cut and photographed mine sometime back but was having trouble getting the DP data collated (my datalogger records 4 times per second so I have to sort thru a lot of data). I guess I will just start a thread with the 15K P1 and save the data for later. Look for it.
dnewton3
Staff member
Filter pix; cut open this evening ...
The can and such were all fine.
Yup - it's mucky in there, but the media certainly did it's job with aplomb.
Even using a hacksaw, I was able to cut close enough to the base-plate that none of the shavings got near the media.
ADBV was VERY pliable still, even after 15k miles.
Media was unremarkable, i.e. perfectly formed, still solid, no tears, etc.
http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/dnewton3/media/filter pix fl400s/IMG_0036_zps0ab906df.jpg.html
Not bad for a normal filter after 15k miles on the same oil load, eh?
The can and such were all fine.
Yup - it's mucky in there, but the media certainly did it's job with aplomb.
Even using a hacksaw, I was able to cut close enough to the base-plate that none of the shavings got near the media.
ADBV was VERY pliable still, even after 15k miles.
Media was unremarkable, i.e. perfectly formed, still solid, no tears, etc.
http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/dnewton3/media/filter pix fl400s/IMG_0036_zps0ab906df.jpg.html
Not bad for a normal filter after 15k miles on the same oil load, eh?
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Motorcraft FL400S is 1 of the best filters that can be bought at Walmart for under $4.
My FCI in my '94 LS400 was 1 year/12-15k miles with various low end to mid range filters, I never paid more than $4-5 for a filter in that car.
I think almost any mid range filter can be in service for 10-15k miles in a clean engine. Filter companies are promoting expensive filters for their financial bottom lines.
My FCI in my '94 LS400 was 1 year/12-15k miles with various low end to mid range filters, I never paid more than $4-5 for a filter in that car.
I think almost any mid range filter can be in service for 10-15k miles in a clean engine. Filter companies are promoting expensive filters for their financial bottom lines.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/dnewton3/media/filter pix fl400s/IMG_0036_zps0ab906df.jpg.html
Inside the can looks a bit hairy.
http://s1333.photobucket.com/user/dnewton3/media/filter pix fl400s/IMG_0036_zps0ab906df.jpg.html
Inside the can looks a bit hairy.
I am not going to risk my $17000 vehicle on a $20 OCI that may be too long.
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Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am not going to risk my $17000 vehicle on a $20 OCI that may be too long.
Nobody says you have to. You're missing the point. You've just been given a demonstration of what's possible and you are looking at it the wrong way. I don't know what your maintenance intervals are, but if they are based on the "shorter is better" philosophy, you've just seen a demonstration this is incorrect. To use the old Three Bears adage, there's too short, too long and just right. Just right is a lot longer than many people believe.
I am not going to risk my $17000 vehicle on a $20 OCI that may be too long.
Nobody says you have to. You're missing the point. You've just been given a demonstration of what's possible and you are looking at it the wrong way. I don't know what your maintenance intervals are, but if they are based on the "shorter is better" philosophy, you've just seen a demonstration this is incorrect. To use the old Three Bears adage, there's too short, too long and just right. Just right is a lot longer than many people believe.
Filter looks fine. It held up better than the P1 in my 5.4L overall. Ironic since they are made by the same company ( : < ).
What's in the can does look nasty but bear in in mind the temps. Dave and I share the same general region and it's getting cold here... 31F right now. If he cut that filter in an unheated shop in coldish weather, the oil will naturally be a bit gooey in appearance. Of course it could be some sludge as well. Hard to tell from the pics.
What's in the can does look nasty but bear in in mind the temps. Dave and I share the same general region and it's getting cold here... 31F right now. If he cut that filter in an unheated shop in coldish weather, the oil will naturally be a bit gooey in appearance. Of course it could be some sludge as well. Hard to tell from the pics.
Maybe so but in my view oil and oil filter is cheap compared to total cost of vehicle.
I tend to be of the middle school here; basal filters can last about 7500 miles, E-cores about 6000 miles, good filters about 10,000 miles, and the best ones like the Mobil Extended Performance 15000; with a few boutique types like the Amsoil to 25,000.
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Maybe so but in my view oil and oil filter is cheap compared to total cost of vehicle.
Oil and filter are cheap,compared to a possible sludged motor or worse.
Maybe so but in my view oil and oil filter is cheap compared to total cost of vehicle.
Oil and filter are cheap,compared to a possible sludged motor or worse.
dnewton3
Staff member
I agree that oil and filters are cheap relative to a new engine.
However ...
This is a quest for knowledge, based upon real world data and not conjecture and suppostion. Many of you are more than welcome to stick to ol'skool mentality about "cheap insurance". But what you call cheap, I call waste. There is ZERO evidence to show that I did anything to risk my investment, and all the PROOF shows that both the oil and the filter weathered 15k miles with aplomb. Data and facts just seem to keep getting in the way of good ol' mythology and rhetoric.
Most folks said my first 10k mile UOA was a fluke, because it was so good. "Try doing it again ..." So I did. And after another long 15k mile OCI, the wear is well in control. And if I could find that Si leak, it would be even better still.
As for the filter, folks thought 10k miles on the Classic was too far, but the data showed otherwise. Here, the 15k miles on a FL400S shows the filter did it's job well. Wear metals were in check, insolubles were very moderate, oil was neither too think or too thin, etc.
Just because you don't like what you see inside a filter, does not mean it's unacceptable from a manner of true performance. This is no differnt that folks who look at oil on a dipstick and promtly pronounce the oil shot because it's "too dark".
When you disect a filter, you should be looking at things that the physical presence can afford; did the media hold up well, are the components still in place, is the ADBV still pliable, etc, etc. However, if you want to know how a filter actually filters, you cannot look inside the can. You need to look at UOA and PC data. Don't confuse the two methods of knowledge quest. I cut the filter open to see how the filter held up (quite admirably if you ask me), not how the oil did; that's what UOAs are for.
As always (and for about the 100th time), this is not a process to be taken lightly or undertaken blindly. You have to know the family history of the equipment. You need to understand how UOA data can and cannot be used. You need to purchase and read and understand SAE studies. You need access to heaps of UOA data. You need to enjoy being a wrench-turning gearhead. I shall never, ever suggest people just blindly extend an OCI out to 15-20k miles with no tools in the chest for tracking; that's just plain foolish.
But it's no more foolish that using syns and super-duper filters for 7k miles, calling it "cheap insurance" when any manner of "normal" products would likely take you 2x that distance. And then when you ingore your own UOA data which tells you so, it only serves to double down on the waste.
Running a syn/super-filter for normal OCIs isn't cheap insurance; it's gawd-awful-stupid-expensive-insurance. If you want cheap insurance, then run a normal oil and filter for a normal OEM OCI. There is so much buffer already built into "normal" products that hyper-great products are just plain undeeded and a total waste of money. I have proven that typical oils and filters are capable of going way past where most of you ever fear to tread. I've gone further on dino than most would dare on syn. I've run a typical filter 2x longer than many of you would dare on a PureOne or such.
The only difference here is I was challenged to put my money where my mouth is, and I did. I have proved what I claimed.
However ...
This is a quest for knowledge, based upon real world data and not conjecture and suppostion. Many of you are more than welcome to stick to ol'skool mentality about "cheap insurance". But what you call cheap, I call waste. There is ZERO evidence to show that I did anything to risk my investment, and all the PROOF shows that both the oil and the filter weathered 15k miles with aplomb. Data and facts just seem to keep getting in the way of good ol' mythology and rhetoric.
Most folks said my first 10k mile UOA was a fluke, because it was so good. "Try doing it again ..." So I did. And after another long 15k mile OCI, the wear is well in control. And if I could find that Si leak, it would be even better still.
As for the filter, folks thought 10k miles on the Classic was too far, but the data showed otherwise. Here, the 15k miles on a FL400S shows the filter did it's job well. Wear metals were in check, insolubles were very moderate, oil was neither too think or too thin, etc.
Just because you don't like what you see inside a filter, does not mean it's unacceptable from a manner of true performance. This is no differnt that folks who look at oil on a dipstick and promtly pronounce the oil shot because it's "too dark".
When you disect a filter, you should be looking at things that the physical presence can afford; did the media hold up well, are the components still in place, is the ADBV still pliable, etc, etc. However, if you want to know how a filter actually filters, you cannot look inside the can. You need to look at UOA and PC data. Don't confuse the two methods of knowledge quest. I cut the filter open to see how the filter held up (quite admirably if you ask me), not how the oil did; that's what UOAs are for.
As always (and for about the 100th time), this is not a process to be taken lightly or undertaken blindly. You have to know the family history of the equipment. You need to understand how UOA data can and cannot be used. You need to purchase and read and understand SAE studies. You need access to heaps of UOA data. You need to enjoy being a wrench-turning gearhead. I shall never, ever suggest people just blindly extend an OCI out to 15-20k miles with no tools in the chest for tracking; that's just plain foolish.
But it's no more foolish that using syns and super-duper filters for 7k miles, calling it "cheap insurance" when any manner of "normal" products would likely take you 2x that distance. And then when you ingore your own UOA data which tells you so, it only serves to double down on the waste.
Running a syn/super-filter for normal OCIs isn't cheap insurance; it's gawd-awful-stupid-expensive-insurance. If you want cheap insurance, then run a normal oil and filter for a normal OEM OCI. There is so much buffer already built into "normal" products that hyper-great products are just plain undeeded and a total waste of money. I have proven that typical oils and filters are capable of going way past where most of you ever fear to tread. I've gone further on dino than most would dare on syn. I've run a typical filter 2x longer than many of you would dare on a PureOne or such.
The only difference here is I was challenged to put my money where my mouth is, and I did. I have proved what I claimed.
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Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Maybe so but in my view oil and oil filter is cheap compared to total cost of vehicle.
Considering the use Dave gets out of his vehicle, those savings are real. He's approaching taxi mileage in that van.
Another thing that really rings true when you have a vehicle with that mileage is that you'll never get the money back by being OCD about maintenance (i.e. synthetic at 3,000 miles or something similar). Get one totalled off some time (that's a far bigger danger to a taxi than the engine failing). I don't ever remember wishing I had put synthetic in and done really short OCIs when I saw a taxi in a crumpled heap and the insurer wrote a measly little cheque because it had a billion miles on it.
Maybe so but in my view oil and oil filter is cheap compared to total cost of vehicle.
Considering the use Dave gets out of his vehicle, those savings are real. He's approaching taxi mileage in that van.
Another thing that really rings true when you have a vehicle with that mileage is that you'll never get the money back by being OCD about maintenance (i.e. synthetic at 3,000 miles or something similar). Get one totalled off some time (that's a far bigger danger to a taxi than the engine failing). I don't ever remember wishing I had put synthetic in and done really short OCIs when I saw a taxi in a crumpled heap and the insurer wrote a measly little cheque because it had a billion miles on it.
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