OCl - car /diesel vs. quality moto specific syn

[howie333]

07 Ninja 650R/ HD FLHRI(Road King)
I've been using Amsoils oils and filters in my bikes for years, and changing motor oils @5K mls. Amsoil rep informed me I can double that mileage to make the oil pay it's additional expense over conventional or car/diesel syn oils, and will be safe to do. I still change @5Kmls. My question is; would I be better to use a less expensive SYN or conventional oil, (moto or non-moto--non energy conserv) and change oils at 2.5-3K ml OCI w/ good auto oil filter?
HR

 

[Steve S]

Do a couple of uoas?

 

[howie333]

Havn't changed oil brands yet. Just curious what is proved to be most cost effective and effecient. Of most oil analysis I've read, seems almost any non-eng-conserv. oil of the proper visocity will protect as good as any synthetic oil for 2500-3000 mls. , and using a similar syn car or diesel oil(proper vis) will be slightly better for that same given miles. The top shelf Amsoil i'm using is aprox. $10/QT. Others mentioned are less than half $$,but near 1/2 the mileage OCI. Which method are most using?

 

[crazyoildude]

i would use the best "cost effective" synthetic i can find

 

[BigCahuna]

I run Amsoil 20/50 year round in my '03 Ultra. I change the oil between 4-5k miles. My friend racks up alot of miles on his '05 road king also uses Amsoil, but will change it at 8-10k miles and his bike runs as good as everybody elses. My Goldwing uses Delvac and gets changed between 3-4k miles, or once a year. The Goldwing runs the oil thru the motor, trans and clutch, where the Harley's motor oil only see's the motor.I bought the wing used it's 28 years old and I don't know what type of oil was used in it before I bought it. It has 46k miles on it and doesn't use any oil between changes.Delvac can be had for $7 for a 5 qt jug when you catch it on sale, so it's the best bang for the buck I've found.,,

 

[kballowe]

Harleys are notoriously hard on motor oil. I'm not sure if I would be willing to run a 10K oil change interval with ANY oil.

However - much depends on the way the bike is ridden. If it's a lot of short trips (
And - the oil should be changed at least annually, regardless of mileage.

There are some UOAs out here - with the common, ordinary Genuine HD360 for 5k OCIs and they look good. All of the Amsoil and Mobil 1 V-Twin 5k UOAs look good. There are also some Havoline (and other) UOAs in Harleys that merit honorable mention.

Can you use a different 20W-50? Sure. Really - it depends on how you ride, and how many miles you accumulate in a year.

Go check out the UOAs for some good information.

If you're looking for a recommendation... then I'd say that you're doing fine with the Amsoil at 5K OCIs. It's a little more money but how often do you change it, and how much does it add to your annual operating costs?

No, I don't use Amsoil in my Harleys but it is very good oil.

 

[BigCahuna]

To me it's worth the money to use a good synthetic oil that can go 5k miles or more with out worrying about it.Changing oil every 3k miles on my Harley, is not what I'm looking to do. It's a pita. Plus during the summer I take trips that can go 4k miles in a couple of weeks. So even then I will take the oci to the max and can't say I notice any difference in the way it runs.,,

 

[1WildPig]

If you're running 5K or less miles a year, you could run a conventional oil and change it around 2.5K miles. Havoline 20w50 has turned in some good UOAs (in an EVO engine) and/or you could also use a 15w40, such as Rotella (good in the primary too), in the cooler months.

I'm also an AMSOIL dealer and since I don't run more than 5K a year on my EVO powered Road King, this is what I have chose to do. However, if you're running a twin cam (especially with the lean factory tune) and running it in hot weather, the AMSOIL would be more able to handle the extra heat and still run 5K miles - but then again, changing a regular oil out at 2.5K should negate any problems with oil break down due to the extra heat it may have experienced and you'll come out money ahead. I mostly use the black SuperTech 3614 or 3600 oil filters but you can also get a blue STP filter with the same numbers or a white Motorcraft FL400S if they'd match your color better!

 

[BigCahuna]

Wouldn't changing regular oil at 2.5 miles within 5k miles, wind up costing the same as using synthetic oil going 5k between changes? Even if regular oil costs about $4.50 a qt, that's about the same a a qt of synthetic.And the twin cams require a filter with a 5 micron filter rating, so you don't want to screw on any one that happens to fit.Not having to get rid of 4 qts of oil and a messy filter is part of the reason I feel 5k is as often you need to change your oil . And that's Harley's recommendation using their branded regular oil.

 

[1WildPig]

Well, using regular oil I can change mine for less than $12. That's with 4 quarts of Havoline 20w50 that I bought on sale for $2 per quart and a SuperTech filter for $2.97 (+ taxes).

The way I understand oil filters and micron ratings, this 5 micron deal only applies to a certain percentage of what passes thru it and I read somewhere (I think the MC forum here) that even someone from Champion Labs (who makes Harley's filters) confirmed that the SuperTech filter ST3614 met the same specifications as the Harley filter. I had already compared Harley's filter specs to others years ago and got away from paying for a "Harley" filter. Anyway, I've used the ST filters (ST3614 and ST3600) for many thousands of miles without issue as well as some other brands.

So, even if you paid $3 per qt for regular oil and $9 per qt for Amsoil MC oil (or about $7.50 qt for their 20w50 ARO) you'll come out ahead if you don't mind changing your oil ... not to mention the cost of an Amsoil oil filter ($11) compared to the SuperTech. Depending on the operating conditions of the bike, getting fresh oil in more often could also be of more benefit...it all just depends...but for me to come out ahead using the cost of my present "stash" compared with AMSOIL by cost/benefit, I'd have to run AMSOIL at least 7.5K miles in a years time. Also, I wouldn't run any regular oil 5K miles in a twin cam engine even if it is Harley's recommendation. AMSOIL is top notch oil, it just doesn't meet my cost/benefit need in this application at this time.

 

[BigCahuna]

1 Wild pig, I have to ask you, what do you think would happen if you went 5k on a regular oil change? Must be a regional thing but around where I live, I can't find Havoline 20/50 or pretty much any oil for $3.00 a qt.Even the no name oil for sale in the supermarket is $3.99 a qt.,,

 

[1WildPig]

BigCahuna, the twin cam engines are noted to run hotter than the Evo's due to bigger size and a leaner factory tune. A regular oil will start breaking down at 250*F. Like I said, it all depends on the conditions the bike is run in = if it's run in hot conditions like desert temps or heavy traffic it'll be more of a concern, if it's run in cooler weather or mostly highway, not so much. Changing a regular oil out at 2.5K miles would help insure that the oil was still good after exposure to that kind of heat. I'd just prefer the peace of mind of knowing the oil that had to run 5K miles in a twin cam engine was a synthetic that could take that kind of heat and not break down.

The Havoline I bought was qts in cases at a local autoparts store before a markup came in but I've seen the 5 qt containers at Wal-Mart for around $12 dollars ... I just read on another thread that some of the southern Wal-Marts are marking oil prices down ... I don't really need any, but I think I'll take a quick spin down the road and see if mine is marking any down ...

 

[BigCahuna]

Well knowing regular oil breaks down at a lower temp then synthetic oils, and you really don't know or can't tell what conditions the oil will be subject to on any given day as traffic conditions will vary, it makes sense to run a good quality synthetic oil that can handle the extreme temps over 250 degrees, plus has the ability to go longer between changes.,,

 

[OnTheFence]

Intersting thread, as I have been questioning whether or not I have been wasting money using synthetics in my TC. If a conventional is prone to breaking down at or near 250F, would that show on a UOA? If so, what would the measurement be, the Viscostity?

 

[kballowe]

Is it really 250 degrees? My Harleys routinely run at 240-250 on the oil temperature in the hot summmer months (in the tank).
Of the two UOAs that I sent in - they were both OK.

 

[BigCahuna]

For conventional oils 250 degrees is the point in which they will start the break down process. I'm not goin to say once oil hits 250 it turns instantly to sludge, but it's abilty to perform is starting to drop. If you check out the uoa section all the different brands of conventional oil, have flashpoints lower the synthetic oils.And will generally shear a grade or two. Synthetics also seem to have higher amounts of anti wear additives. I guess that could explain the higher cost over conventional oils.I don't think i have ever read a BAD uoa. The worst case they say to change your oil. I haven't seen a recommendation to change brands or even grade.Heck guys make up their own concoctions of oil and they'll say keep doing what your doing. I feel for a uoa to mean anything, you need to know what your starting with and what you end up with.,,

 

[kballowe]

Yeah, I dunno. Specified flashpoint is typically > 385 for conventional oils.

 

[sunruh]

the lowest i've seen in my tests is 365 from both amsoil and havoline (both had fuel). the highest being vr-1 at 465.
quakerstate high horsepower was very high at 455 as well.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
For conventional oils 250 degrees is the point in which they will start the break down process. I'm not goin to say once oil hits 250 it turns instantly to sludge, but it's abilty to perform is starting to drop. If you check out the uoa section all the different brands of conventional oil, have flashpoints lower the synthetic oils.And will generally shear a grade or two. Synthetics also seem to have higher amounts of anti wear additives. I guess that could explain the higher cost over conventional oils.I don't think i have ever read a BAD uoa. The worst case they say to change your oil. I haven't seen a recommendation to change brands or even grade.Heck guys make up their own concoctions of oil and they'll say keep doing what your doing. I feel for a uoa to mean anything, you need to know what your starting with and what you end up with.,,
I read in the material from the late 1960 was 275*f but have not seen a number due to not really needing to know but now I am wondering what the temps are for the GPII on up base oils.