O Weight Racing Oil Use

[AEHaas]

Michael Valotta just gave me this article about Winston Cup racing, an interveiw with Rusty Wallace.

http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/goss/2313.shtml
.....Goss: Oils, I mean you destroy oils out there.

Rusty: We do. No doubt about that.

Goss: Now, one of the myths is that oils in race cars, no one would ever use a synthetic. That's wrong.

Rusty: That's wrong. I don't think anybody would use the old style oil anymore. Almost everybody uses synthetic. I mean you can take this oil, and I'll put it in our car in the NASCAR Winston Cup circuit, take it out there. I've had cases where this might, my oil temperature gauge is pegged at 320 degrees, because we've got a piece of paper on the front of the grill. Heck, I've run 200 and 300 mile races without having any problem whatsoever. In fact, I've won races before at the oil temperature gauge peg, and you could never do that with non-synthetic oils. This stuff is really pretty bulletproof nowadays.

Goss: Okay. Now, the other thing, we're always hearing that if it's a race car, it's going to be running 50 weight oil. Now, that's changed, too.

Rusty: Yeah, a lot of people think that the more rpms you go, the hotter everything is, you've got to have this real thick oil, and that's not necessarily the case. In a lot of cases nowadays, we're qualifying in racing 0-weight oil. We've got a lot of very, very light oil. It's getting to the bearings, turns a lot of rpm, less friction, less heat because of less friction, making more horsepower. And so we do a lot of experimenting with oils, but I've got to tell you, I mean we don't race anything over 30 weight nowadays.

Goss: Isn't that amazing? The changes are just phenomenal.

Rusty: They really are. Things have changed a lot, bearing clearances, materials, the oil. It's just amazing how good Mobil's worked to produce this style of racing oil and street car oil and to come up with a formulation. It's just amazing out there. I mean I've got to tell you, when I walk into the dyno room and I see my engine on the dyno turning 9800 to 10,000 rpms, right now we're working some engines that turn over 10,000, and we've got 0-weight oil in there, and I'm just sitting there watching this thing screaming on what we call the terminator, which is a dyno which we can actually run 500-mile races on it. You'll hear the engine shifting on the dyno, you'll hear it run 5 hours. And I'll ask the guy, I'll say, ''What oil we got in here?'' Well, there's four or five different blends we might play with and help experiment with Mobil with, and he says, ''Oh, that's the 0.5 weight stuff.'' I'm like, oh my gosh, and it's just going crazy. Headers are glowing red. You take the engine apart, and the bearings look brand new. So it is absolutely a myth that you have to run 50-weight oil in these cars nowadays.

Goss: Rusty, thank you so very much
From: MotorWeek Online

aehaas

 

[Shannow]

Apparently Bathurst was won in the early 1970s by a 327 chev with a 10W, and a dose of Bardahl's.

 

[wileyE]

Interesting post AE, sort of confirms what we suspected. Wonder how pumped up with adds the oil they use is, and what the prefered AW add is?


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 0w and 5w lumped together in the same API viscosity range? So a 5w could be marketed as 0w or visa versa? And anything under this band is called 0w regardless of how thin it is, so there's no real defination for 0w at this time?

 

[Steve S]

The racing engine has nothing in common with your car engine. Just a thought to remember.

 

[nicrfe1370]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve S:
The racing engine has nothing in common with your car engine. Just a thought to remember.

---

Can we get some clarification on this statement? Don't both have pistons, rings, rods, crankshafts, con rods, cams, plain bearings? Don't they both rely on the combustion of gas to promote reciprocation of the piston in the cylinder, and rotation of the crankshaft? Don't they both produce heat and require an oil for reduction of friction and cooling of internal parts?

 

[Jimbo]

These engines are mechanical dinosars compared to modern street engines, pushrods, carbs, etc. Piston aircraft engines also have the same basic parts and work on the same principles, but are setup with different clearances, etc and require different lubricants to survive.

The real point is that racing bears little resemblence to street operating conditions. A race car engine has to produce maximum or near maximum power for a very few hours before it is replaced. The oil only sees 2-5 hours of use before it is dumped.

If oil temps are running up to 320F, as in the quote above, you are going to need an SAE 50 dino or an ester synthetic for the thin weights.

 

[tdi-rick]

and none of this is new....

Neo introduced their 0W-5 in the late eighties, and a lot of people were qualifying in different series all around the world with it back then. There was also a lot of bore wear, cavitation erosion of bearings and engine failures, but the oil kept improving, as did peoples understanding of how to build an engine to suit the much thinner oil.
It was used extensively in Europe, up to at least Formula 3000. In '89-'90, every runner in the Spec Formula Vauxhall/Lotus series was using it, in an M1 15W-50 sponsored series. The rules were changed to force competitors to use the sponsors product.
Much finer bore finishes, with plateau honing, much tighter bearing clearances, etc, needed to be used.
Back in '92 I was using 0W-5 in Formula Ford engines in races up to about 25*C ambient, and 10W-30 above that. It was worth three horsepower and lbs/ft of torque all the way through the rev range over the straight weight SAE30, and well over four HP and lbs/ft over 20W-50 race oils most of my competitors were using.

Would I use it in my road vehicles ? No. We run diesels exclusively, and their clearances and bore finish were designed around XW-40. I want my road cars to last forever, not need a teardown every 1600km.

 

[buster]

rick, I remember Terry saying the same thing. Neo started a lot of the ultra low viscosity racing oils.

 

[AEHaas]

Nobody I know has run a 50 wt oil in their race engine then switched to an ultra light oil so I do not know the BHP figures but I do know that trying different formulations of ultra thin oils yield 15 to 30 BHP differences in (plus or minus) 600-800 BHP engines.

Also, engines are not waisted every race. In the most severe service, F 1 engines running at 20,000 RPM must be used for 2 races. If you burn an engine up in one race and replace it, you start from the back of the pack for the next race. Several people have finished in the top 3 or 4 several races in a row so these engines must still have a lot of life in them.

aehaas

 

[Volvohead]

So the engines last for 8 hours instead of 4. And often the engines have to be torn down for inspection after a major race anyway. Racing and street use are apples and peas when talking about power vs. longevity.

The thin oil philosophy has been around in big time racing for many years. In the late '80s, a mechanic friend on the Foyt team told me that everyone was running as thin as oil as available, as the extra HP was far more important than engine wear. And everyone ran synthetic. Their only regret was that they were a Valvoline team and couldn't run Mobil 1, which was the gold standard above 10,000 rpm at that time.

 

[robbobster]

Race engine = total tear-down and rebuild using brand-new parts after every race.

My car = total tear-down and rebuild after 250,000 miles / 10 years (hopefully)

I think the longevitiy, cleansing action and operating parameters (temps, heat cycling, etc) of a race motor are significantly different enough to warrant completely different lubrication specs.

Just a thought...

 

[mechtech]

Like Rusty said, the bearings were LIKE NEW after an horrendous bashing with 0 W.
There is a strong trend to thinner, better built oils, in internal combustion engines.

 

[Labatt Bear]

How about Elf XT 3825 0w-20 racing oil, http://www.turbofrogperformance.com/Products/Engine/ELF_HTX.htm ? It says the viscoity at 100F is 8.1 cSt and its HTHS is 2.6. Do you guys think that Renault F1 team uses this oil in their racing engine?

 

[buster]

I didn't know Elf made a 0w-20. Hmmmm.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

nicrfe1370 wrote: "Don't both have pistons, rings, rods, crankshafts, con rods, cams, plain bearings? Don't they both rely on the combustion of gas to promote reciprocation of the piston in the cylinder, and rotation of the crankshaft? Don't they both produce heat and require an oil for reduction of friction and cooling of internal parts?"

Yes, but the materials, machining, tollerances, stress levels, care used durring assembly, and longevity are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Not to mention, dry sump oiling systems, vast uses of titanium, diamond-like coatings, nikasil and other ceramic coatings, piston oil squiters,... The cost to perform the coating work on a typical NASCAR engine is more then the all-ups cost of a typical passenger engine!

mechtech wrote: "Like Rusty said, the bearings were LIKE NEW after an horrendous bashing with 0 W."

Notice he did not say anything about the cam lobes, cylinder walls, valve guides,... e.g. the other kinds of lubrication duties.

AEHAAS wrote: "Also, engines are not waisted every race. In the most severe service, F 1 engines running at 20,000 RPM must be used for 2 races."

In Niki Lauda's book "Art and Science of Grand Prix racing" he mentions that in his era (late 1970's) a GP enigne would loose 20 HP during the course of a race (3.0 litre 180degree V12 engine with 450 HP levels at 12,500 RPMs) and when rebuilt would have lost 5 HP compared to a fresh engine.

Fast forward to today: Last year the typical GP engine made peak power at 18,000 RPMs and was safe to 20,000 RPMs for short durations and made about 850HP from 3.0 litres (BMW was higher). This year these engine have to live for 2 races, and mid-season, the HP level are actually UP from last years 850 to 875 HP while being more reliable (excepting BAR-Honda)

Next year (or the one after) F1 gets 2.4 litre V8 engines. The vibrational problems of V10 F1 engines are what has limited RPMs to the 18,000-19,000 range (crankshaft tortional vibrations). The V8 era will start with 22,000-23,000 RPM engines (already running on the dynos at these levels)--expect only a very minor loss in HP from the (end of 05 season) 900 HP V10s to 850 HP V8s.

In any event:: the oil in a NASCAR engine is changes every time the car drives into the workshop area so there are 5 changes in the oil for a single weekend (3 practice sessions, 1 qualifying session, 1 race). The F1 regimine is similar.

In addition, there only 12 major sub-assemblies that are required to remain for a NASCAR engine to qualify as "the same": A) block, B) 8 pistons, rings, conrod, C) crankshaft, D) crankshaft, and E) Crank-to-cam timing gearset. The rest of the enigne is rebuilt/replaced every night! F1 does not get to replace any major components on an engine and qualify as "the same".

And then in F1 there are the gear boxes:: every time the team goes out and runs for the day, $40,000 parts inside the gear boxes become (ahem) mantle pieces! only the cases are reused! Ref: Wright "Ferrari F2000 Formula One"

 

[wileyE]

Some interesting factoids about another dinosaur V8 based racing. Low tech but probably as highly evolved as any F1 program:


A lesson in acceleration:
------------------------------------
First, some useful info:

* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.

* Under full throttle, a Top Fuel dragster engine consumes 4 litres of
nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the
same
rate with 25% less energy being produced.

* A stock Dodge 426 Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive
the
dragster's supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive,
the
fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition.
Cylinders
run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.

* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitro methane the
flame
front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric
water
vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of
an
arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2
way,
the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves
at
1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel
flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up
in
the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.

* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at
an
average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track,
the
launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading
this sentence.

* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions while traveling a
quarter of a mile!

* Including the burnout the engine must only survive about 900
revolutions under
load.

* The red-line is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.

* The Bottom Line: Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked
for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated
$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record
is
4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top
speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of
the
run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

Putting all of this into perspective:

You are riding the average $250,000 Honda MotoGP bike. Over a mile up
the
road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter
mile
strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the
RC211V hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and
past
the dragster at an honest 200 mph (293 ft/sec). The 'tree' goes green
for
both of you at that moment. The dragster launches and starts after you.
You
keep your wrist cranked hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine
that
sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster catches and passes
you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you
just passed him.

Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200
mph
and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed
you
within a mere 1320 foot long race course.

That, folks, is acceleration

 

[Mitch Alsup]

quote:

---

Originally posted by wileyE:
Some interesting factoids about another dinosaur V8 based racing. Low tech but probably as highly evolved as any F1 program:

---

Durring the turbo F1 era, a 1.5 liter F1 V6 would make 850 HP in race trim and well over 1000 HP in qualifying trim (3 lap motors).

In any event, the turbo F1 motors had similar power to displacement ratios as TF dragster engines, excep that they had to last for 200 miles in a real race and had to be able to do this on gasoline that would knock in the research engine at an effective octane rating of 102.

 

[labman]

All this is done with the stock oil pump?

 

[wileyE]

quote:

---

Durring the turbo F1 era, a 1.5 liter F1 V6 would make 850 HP in race trim and well over 1000 HP in qualifying trim (3 lap motors).

---

were these run on straight toulene? seems like I read that somewhere?

did they make 850hp for 200miles, or just for a few seconds at a time when on boost?

very impressive anyway

 

[Steve S]

quote:

---

Originally posted by nicrfe1370:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve S:
The racing engine has nothing in common with your car engine. Just a thought to remember.

---

Can we get some clarification on this statement? Don't both have pistons, rings, rods, crankshafts, con rods, cams, plain bearings? Don't they both rely on the combustion of gas to promote reciprocation of the piston in the cylinder, and rotation of the crankshaft? Don't they both produce heat and require an oil for reduction of friction and cooling of internal parts?

---

You are right, I have a paddle boat in my pond and it floats, so it is the same as an aircraft carrier. The engines may have the same named parts .But the materials ,the quality the clearances The oil system,the operation, the life of the engine,must I say more .Go look at a top nascar race car, yep it has four wheels but is it like your daily driver?