The bottom line I want to know is this. I'm running a thin oil such as Mobil 1 0w-30 right now along with a Pure One. Is there any problem with this set-up that I need to change? I plan on going to a Mobil 1 filter for winter.
Not impressed with PureONE relief valve
- Thread starter sunfire
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: KA426
The bottom line I want to know is this. I'm running a thin oil such as Mobil 1 0w-30 right now along with a Pure One. Is there any problem with this set-up that I need to change? I plan on going to a Mobil 1 filter for winter.
Don't worry. Everything is fine with the what you're doing.
The bottom line I want to know is this. I'm running a thin oil such as Mobil 1 0w-30 right now along with a Pure One. Is there any problem with this set-up that I need to change? I plan on going to a Mobil 1 filter for winter.
Don't worry. Everything is fine with the what you're doing.
Thanks for clearing that all up, Gary. All this talk back and forth was beginning to drive me crazy.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
When the pump is in relief, it's still pumping oil.
Yes. Absolutely. The only amount of oil that isn't pumped to the engine is what allows it to maintain the relief setting. It's typically very little. Heck, if the oil is too thick, the relief port may not shunt enough of it and you can exceed the relief limit (as rpms increase).
Quote:
If the back-pressure is from the bearings and NOT from the filter (assuming the filter is immediately after the pump) then it is VERY possible for the relief on the pump to be open and still having a constant pressure on both sides of the filter media.
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Quote:
Under circumstances where the media does not impede flow, it is transparent to the pump/bearing/back-pressure/relief relationship.
If the pump isn't in relief ..then the media has absolutely no ability to impede flow. It's immutable. How can media stop a irresistible force? If there's no oil on the other side of the media ..or the oil galleries are empty, then you may see enough PSID to open the bypass valve ......BRIEFLY. Otherwise, if you're not in relief, there's virtually no differential.
Quote:
When the MEDIA becomes the restriction,
Again, how can the media restrict flow without the pump being in relief? 1 gpm is 1 gpm regardless of what you pump it through. The only thing that happens is that the oil will either accelerate or decelerate as the various passages (these can be the pores in the media) constrict or expand.
..and again, this can only occur out of relief (generally speaking) at start up where you've got no mass to push forward from the filter. Think of a bladder type material with holes in it. When you first try and pump anything through it ..it will bulg if there's nothing to shore up the other side. Once the discharge side is enveloped ..and the REAL outlet is providing a vastly higher restriction ..there will be no bulging since there will be very little differential of pressure. The vast majority of the pressure produced by oil flow is dissipated across the engine to atmospheric. The filter, in comparison, is not even there.
Quote:
and with the filter in bypass,
Again, outside of the brief "empty chamber" scenario ..just how is the media any more or less "restrictive" from one moment to the next to produce any differential to open the bypass valve?
That is, if the media presents enough restriction to produce back pressure between the filter and the pump to produce a relief actuation ..just what would change after the engine was fully enveloped? Under that scenario, even more pump output would be shunted to recirculation due to the additional back pressure of the fully enveloped engine.
Quote:
it is VERY possible for the pump to be in relief and the filter still be transparent to the oiling system and subsequently NOT in bypass.
I assert that this is NOT possible.
Quote:
You are describing the filter as a substantial restriction in oil flow.
I'm asserting that the exact opposite is true in the vast majority of conditions.
Quote:
This is not always the case.
I assert that it's rarely the case.
Quote:
We have a pump that, at 3,000RPM (engine) moves 7Gph at 60psi, which is the bypass pressure on the pump.
I'd say that you've got the wrong oil in there ..but we'll go with it. If you're operating above 3000 rpm, I assure you that you'll have some elevated PSID at the filter since you're relieving some of the flow
Quote:
Now, the bearing clearances are extremely tight on the engine in question and the pump will peg at bypass at 60psi at 3,000RPM, since it cannot force any more oil volume through the bearings at that pressure.
Then, again, you're using too heavy an oil ..but we'll go with it. It really doesn't matter whether your developed pressure "at volume" is from tight clearances or viscosity ..it all results in a back pressure generated by a given flow rate at a given viscosity through a given restriction. It's a triangle that's hard to avoid...
Quote:
Now we put a filter on it that can flow 13Gph.
Put one on that can pass 25gpm ...9 gpm ..whatever.
Quote:
Now, there is now way the filter is going to be in bypass in this scenario,
Sure it can ..but I don't believe I ever said that you're assured to be in bypass just because you're in relief. I stated that (typically) you're in relief whenever you're in filter bypass. When you're in relief, you are at an elevated differential.
Filter medias are restrictive ..some more than others. There's no two ways about it. What most people can't get through their heads is that ALTHOUGH (in our normal conceptual view) they are restrictive ..that they DON'T ALTER FLOW due to it ..because THE ENGINE IS SO MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE IT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT - UNLESS YOU ARE IN RELIEF.
Oil flow is like bumper to bumper traffic. You have traffic traveling at a given rate of cars per minute. You can go from a 4 lane to a two lane to a 22 lane highway ..and if you've only got a one lane outlet ..the lane changes are merely velocity changes ..twice as many cars (or whatever) traveling at half the speed (or whatever).
Most of us view flow like a water faucet or electrical outlet and automatically assume that any restriction will reduce output. They have a very hard time seeing a flow dictated situation where the product merely accelerates or decelerates depending on the effective allowance of the conduit that it's in at the moment.
This may illustrate it for you better. The flows here are identical.
Legend:
Circle: Pump
First choke: Oil filter
Second choke: Engine
When the pump is in relief, it's still pumping oil.
Yes. Absolutely. The only amount of oil that isn't pumped to the engine is what allows it to maintain the relief setting. It's typically very little. Heck, if the oil is too thick, the relief port may not shunt enough of it and you can exceed the relief limit (as rpms increase).
Quote:
If the back-pressure is from the bearings and NOT from the filter (assuming the filter is immediately after the pump) then it is VERY possible for the relief on the pump to be open and still having a constant pressure on both sides of the filter media.
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Quote:
Under circumstances where the media does not impede flow, it is transparent to the pump/bearing/back-pressure/relief relationship.
If the pump isn't in relief ..then the media has absolutely no ability to impede flow. It's immutable. How can media stop a irresistible force? If there's no oil on the other side of the media ..or the oil galleries are empty, then you may see enough PSID to open the bypass valve ......BRIEFLY. Otherwise, if you're not in relief, there's virtually no differential.
Quote:
When the MEDIA becomes the restriction,
Again, how can the media restrict flow without the pump being in relief? 1 gpm is 1 gpm regardless of what you pump it through. The only thing that happens is that the oil will either accelerate or decelerate as the various passages (these can be the pores in the media) constrict or expand.
..and again, this can only occur out of relief (generally speaking) at start up where you've got no mass to push forward from the filter. Think of a bladder type material with holes in it. When you first try and pump anything through it ..it will bulg if there's nothing to shore up the other side. Once the discharge side is enveloped ..and the REAL outlet is providing a vastly higher restriction ..there will be no bulging since there will be very little differential of pressure. The vast majority of the pressure produced by oil flow is dissipated across the engine to atmospheric. The filter, in comparison, is not even there.
Quote:
and with the filter in bypass,
Again, outside of the brief "empty chamber" scenario ..just how is the media any more or less "restrictive" from one moment to the next to produce any differential to open the bypass valve?
That is, if the media presents enough restriction to produce back pressure between the filter and the pump to produce a relief actuation ..just what would change after the engine was fully enveloped? Under that scenario, even more pump output would be shunted to recirculation due to the additional back pressure of the fully enveloped engine.
Quote:
it is VERY possible for the pump to be in relief and the filter still be transparent to the oiling system and subsequently NOT in bypass.
I assert that this is NOT possible.
Quote:
You are describing the filter as a substantial restriction in oil flow.
I'm asserting that the exact opposite is true in the vast majority of conditions.
Quote:
This is not always the case.
I assert that it's rarely the case.
Quote:
We have a pump that, at 3,000RPM (engine) moves 7Gph at 60psi, which is the bypass pressure on the pump.
I'd say that you've got the wrong oil in there ..but we'll go with it. If you're operating above 3000 rpm, I assure you that you'll have some elevated PSID at the filter since you're relieving some of the flow
Quote:
Now, the bearing clearances are extremely tight on the engine in question and the pump will peg at bypass at 60psi at 3,000RPM, since it cannot force any more oil volume through the bearings at that pressure.
Then, again, you're using too heavy an oil ..but we'll go with it. It really doesn't matter whether your developed pressure "at volume" is from tight clearances or viscosity ..it all results in a back pressure generated by a given flow rate at a given viscosity through a given restriction. It's a triangle that's hard to avoid...
Quote:
Now we put a filter on it that can flow 13Gph.
Put one on that can pass 25gpm ...9 gpm ..whatever.
Quote:
Now, there is now way the filter is going to be in bypass in this scenario,
Sure it can ..but I don't believe I ever said that you're assured to be in bypass just because you're in relief. I stated that (typically) you're in relief whenever you're in filter bypass. When you're in relief, you are at an elevated differential.
Filter medias are restrictive ..some more than others. There's no two ways about it. What most people can't get through their heads is that ALTHOUGH (in our normal conceptual view) they are restrictive ..that they DON'T ALTER FLOW due to it ..because THE ENGINE IS SO MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE IT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT - UNLESS YOU ARE IN RELIEF.
Oil flow is like bumper to bumper traffic. You have traffic traveling at a given rate of cars per minute. You can go from a 4 lane to a two lane to a 22 lane highway ..and if you've only got a one lane outlet ..the lane changes are merely velocity changes ..twice as many cars (or whatever) traveling at half the speed (or whatever).
Most of us view flow like a water faucet or electrical outlet and automatically assume that any restriction will reduce output. They have a very hard time seeing a flow dictated situation where the product merely accelerates or decelerates depending on the effective allowance of the conduit that it's in at the moment.
This may illustrate it for you better. The flows here are identical.
Legend:
Circle: Pump
First choke: Oil filter
Second choke: Engine
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Expressed in electrical terms..
The engine is a fixed resistance
The filter is a variable resistance that attenuates at the bypass valve limit. It can be from near zero to (let's say) 15lbs.
Both have to alway add up to the supply to atmospheric.
Max pressure at reduced flow ..the PSI still has to add up to supply.
The engine "back pressure" will be a product of the flow at viscosity through it. Reduced flow ..reduced back pressure.
The filter must make up this "difference" in apparent resistance. The difference is the loss of the shunted flow through the relief.
You've got to be able to "switch hit" here in how you view the fluid characteristics in the two radically different states. One is a unified single flow that has no choice but to manage through at whatever velocity it must attain to work (in how the equation plays out). The other (relief) doesn't have to follow those rules.
The engine is a fixed resistance
The filter is a variable resistance that attenuates at the bypass valve limit. It can be from near zero to (let's say) 15lbs.
Both have to alway add up to the supply to atmospheric.
Max pressure at reduced flow ..the PSI still has to add up to supply.
The engine "back pressure" will be a product of the flow at viscosity through it. Reduced flow ..reduced back pressure.
The filter must make up this "difference" in apparent resistance. The difference is the loss of the shunted flow through the relief.
You've got to be able to "switch hit" here in how you view the fluid characteristics in the two radically different states. One is a unified single flow that has no choice but to manage through at whatever velocity it must attain to work (in how the equation plays out). The other (relief) doesn't have to follow those rules.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Gary:
I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with parts of it.
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Quote:
Filter medias are restrictive ..some more than others. There's no two ways about it. What most people can't get through their heads is that ALTHOUGH (in our normal conceptual view) they are restrictive ..that they DON'T ALTER FLOW due to it ..because THE ENGINE IS SO MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE IT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT - UNLESS YOU ARE IN RELIEF.
This part I agree with. Which is why I made the point about high-flowing media that exceeds the flow capacity of the system. If the media is able to sustain 25Gpm with almost no pressure-drop across the media, then in a system moving 7Gpm, the filter should never bypass unless it plugs up, or the viscosity of the oil is such that it cannot flow through the media at that rate, and subsequently sends the filter into bypass.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one?
-Chris
I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with parts of it.
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Quote:
Filter medias are restrictive ..some more than others. There's no two ways about it. What most people can't get through their heads is that ALTHOUGH (in our normal conceptual view) they are restrictive ..that they DON'T ALTER FLOW due to it ..because THE ENGINE IS SO MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE IT DOESN'T MEAN SQUAT - UNLESS YOU ARE IN RELIEF.
This part I agree with. Which is why I made the point about high-flowing media that exceeds the flow capacity of the system. If the media is able to sustain 25Gpm with almost no pressure-drop across the media, then in a system moving 7Gpm, the filter should never bypass unless it plugs up, or the viscosity of the oil is such that it cannot flow through the media at that rate, and subsequently sends the filter into bypass.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one?
-Chris
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Well, we're only dealing with this issue as viewed from the filter ..above and below it.
If the oil pump is not in relief, then there will be a very slight differential across the filter. There will be pressure losses/gains along any fluid or otherwise transmission (air/water/steam/etc.) conduit. The passage to the main gallery ..whatever..it all takes its toll.
But I stand by this statement:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
The pressure differential will be very slight when not in relief ..and variable up to the bypass setting when the oil pump is in relief. That PSID will be in some proportion to the percentage of shunted flow as it relates to total pump output.
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Well, we're only dealing with this issue as viewed from the filter ..above and below it.
If the oil pump is not in relief, then there will be a very slight differential across the filter. There will be pressure losses/gains along any fluid or otherwise transmission (air/water/steam/etc.) conduit. The passage to the main gallery ..whatever..it all takes its toll.
But I stand by this statement:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
The pressure differential will be very slight when not in relief ..and variable up to the bypass setting when the oil pump is in relief. That PSID will be in some proportion to the percentage of shunted flow as it relates to total pump output.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Well, we're only dealing with this issue as viewed from the filter ..above and below it.
If the oil pump is not in relief, then there will be a very slight differential across the filter. There will be pressure losses/gains along any fluid or otherwise transmission (air/water/steam/etc.) conduit. The passage to the main gallery ..whatever..it all takes its toll.
But I stand by this statement:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
The pressure differential will be very slight when not in relief ..and variable up to the bypass setting when the oil pump is in relief. That PSID will be in some proportion to the percentage of shunted flow as it relates to total pump output.
But what kind of differential are we talking about Gary? I concede there is going to be SOME differential due to the pressure required to move the fluid through the media, but we are talking about something that is insubstantial in the big scheme of things in regards to total system pressure. How much of a differential did you observe? I cannot fathom it being any more than a fraction of a point of pressure with a hot, thin oil in the sump.......
Quote:
Primarily this part:
Quote:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
Because if the engine post-filter is more restrictive than the filter (and in the scenario I depicted, it is) then the pressure in front of the pump is the same pressure as sampled before the oil enters the block, and between those two points lies the filter.
Well, we're only dealing with this issue as viewed from the filter ..above and below it.
If the oil pump is not in relief, then there will be a very slight differential across the filter. There will be pressure losses/gains along any fluid or otherwise transmission (air/water/steam/etc.) conduit. The passage to the main gallery ..whatever..it all takes its toll.
But I stand by this statement:
If the engine is fully enveloped ..I assure you that there's constant pressure on both sides of the media. It's just not the same pressure. It can't be.
The pressure differential will be very slight when not in relief ..and variable up to the bypass setting when the oil pump is in relief. That PSID will be in some proportion to the percentage of shunted flow as it relates to total pump output.
But what kind of differential are we talking about Gary? I concede there is going to be SOME differential due to the pressure required to move the fluid through the media, but we are talking about something that is insubstantial in the big scheme of things in regards to total system pressure. How much of a differential did you observe? I cannot fathom it being any more than a fraction of a point of pressure with a hot, thin oil in the sump.......
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
But what kind of differential are we talking about Gary?
When there's no pump relief activity? None ..or next to it. It's probably in the inches of W.C. range.
Quote:
I concede there is going to be SOME differential due to the pressure required to move the fluid through the media, but we are talking about something that is insubstantial in the big scheme of things in regards to total system pressure.
Yes ..barely detectable..and that's the whole basis of my lengthy post here. People carry on ad nauseum about "better flowing" and "faster flowing" filters ..when what really effects PSID/bypass action and flow reductions is their pump limits/volume/viscosity triangle. If you're rarely in relief ...there's no physical way for any filter to ever effect "flow". Most cannot see that.
These "concepts" are exclusive of the effects of loading..which can and will elevate the baseline differential that can be obtained in a "reactive" way. That is, while it will elevate the PSID (based on the visc of the fluid) it will still be a small player. In any event, it doesn't alter flow any ..and would be hard pressed to reach bypass limits.
Now there are those who may have one problem or another that's altered by using a different filter. They've got some issue with pump integrity. They either have a warn pump or a pump with very low efficiency. The only instances that I've heard this reported has been in an engine with advanced mileage ..and there's (here) literally thousands of units that have no such issues.
Now when Terry asserts that an M1 filter goes into bypass too often for his liking, I imagine it's based on some loading factor that goes with extended drains. It could also be observations in instances where engines were very near their relief limits due to viscosity and pump volumes employed during his assessment.
Doug Hillary finally confirmed (or explained) why VW/AUDI/Porsche filters have radically higher bypass settings. They spec higher visc oils with high volume pumps and reach high pressure levels. The oil pump may be in relief for 20 minutes of driving and a normal filter would then be perpetually in bypass for, perhaps, the majority of the life of the engine. Hence they employ a 30lb bypass setting to assure that the filter indeed filters.
But what kind of differential are we talking about Gary?
When there's no pump relief activity? None ..or next to it. It's probably in the inches of W.C. range.
Quote:
I concede there is going to be SOME differential due to the pressure required to move the fluid through the media, but we are talking about something that is insubstantial in the big scheme of things in regards to total system pressure.
Yes ..barely detectable..and that's the whole basis of my lengthy post here. People carry on ad nauseum about "better flowing" and "faster flowing" filters ..when what really effects PSID/bypass action and flow reductions is their pump limits/volume/viscosity triangle. If you're rarely in relief ...there's no physical way for any filter to ever effect "flow". Most cannot see that.
These "concepts" are exclusive of the effects of loading..which can and will elevate the baseline differential that can be obtained in a "reactive" way. That is, while it will elevate the PSID (based on the visc of the fluid) it will still be a small player. In any event, it doesn't alter flow any ..and would be hard pressed to reach bypass limits.
Now there are those who may have one problem or another that's altered by using a different filter. They've got some issue with pump integrity. They either have a warn pump or a pump with very low efficiency. The only instances that I've heard this reported has been in an engine with advanced mileage ..and there's (here) literally thousands of units that have no such issues.
Now when Terry asserts that an M1 filter goes into bypass too often for his liking, I imagine it's based on some loading factor that goes with extended drains. It could also be observations in instances where engines were very near their relief limits due to viscosity and pump volumes employed during his assessment.
Doug Hillary finally confirmed (or explained) why VW/AUDI/Porsche filters have radically higher bypass settings. They spec higher visc oils with high volume pumps and reach high pressure levels. The oil pump may be in relief for 20 minutes of driving and a normal filter would then be perpetually in bypass for, perhaps, the majority of the life of the engine. Hence they employ a 30lb bypass setting to assure that the filter indeed filters.
dnewton3
Staff member
Wow - I'm getting flashbacks from when Gary and I used to go around and around over this very same issue! I'm not in total agreement with everything he states either. His model of bypass actuation cannot be reconciled mathematically.
At some point, you've just got to agree to disagree, and call it a draw.
However, in no way does that diminish my respect for Gary's position, or all the efforts and good-will gestures he puts forth on this site. I have learned much from him. Don't completely agree with him, but I sure do like and appreciate him!
The question becomes this: if he's willing to associate with me, you at least have to wonder about his judgement ...
At some point, you've just got to agree to disagree, and call it a draw.
However, in no way does that diminish my respect for Gary's position, or all the efforts and good-will gestures he puts forth on this site. I have learned much from him. Don't completely agree with him, but I sure do like and appreciate him!
The question becomes this: if he's willing to associate with me, you at least have to wonder about his judgement ...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
Wow - I'm getting flashbacks from when Gary and I used to go around and around over this very same issue! I'm not in total agreement with everything he states either.
Yes, it's a struggle
Quote:
His model of bypass actuation cannot be reconciled mathematically.
While you're also stifled on proving any other alternative concept mathematically too
I fully admit that I don't have the mojo to "prove" the physics that I describe (as in "see") going on at a certain point in my suggested model. I merely back constructed a process that satisfied the physical events observed.
...but look at it from the standpoint of the dummy figuring out how to get to the treasure room by screwing with the lock ..and leaving it to the geeks to explain the mechanism behind the magic combination lock.
"I got you this far"
I'm so willing to be spanked on this.
I imagine someone who was down with resistive loads interacting with reactive loads would see it ...but they would have to also alter their typical view to a current dictated frame of reference ..which will be a departure. They also have to switch hit from viewing as a resistive series circuit to a reactive (partially) parallel circuit.
Maybe a Zener diode in parallel with a variable resistor ..with a static resistor downstream. The filter is a resistance that can vary from near zero to, let's say, 12psi ..the relief valve for the pump will always drop supply pressure to ground at high impedance ..but will only work when you reach the pressure threshold (sorta like a Zener). The engine is just a resistive load ..and therefore produces back pressure on a totally sensible series circuit model below the filter.
Wow - I'm getting flashbacks from when Gary and I used to go around and around over this very same issue! I'm not in total agreement with everything he states either.
Quote:
His model of bypass actuation cannot be reconciled mathematically.
I fully admit that I don't have the mojo to "prove" the physics that I describe (as in "see") going on at a certain point in my suggested model. I merely back constructed a process that satisfied the physical events observed.
...but look at it from the standpoint of the dummy figuring out how to get to the treasure room by screwing with the lock ..and leaving it to the geeks to explain the mechanism behind the magic combination lock.
"I got you this far"
I'm so willing to be spanked on this.
I imagine someone who was down with resistive loads interacting with reactive loads would see it ...but they would have to also alter their typical view to a current dictated frame of reference ..which will be a departure. They also have to switch hit from viewing as a resistive series circuit to a reactive (partially) parallel circuit.
Maybe a Zener diode in parallel with a variable resistor ..with a static resistor downstream. The filter is a resistance that can vary from near zero to, let's say, 12psi ..the relief valve for the pump will always drop supply pressure to ground at high impedance ..but will only work when you reach the pressure threshold (sorta like a Zener). The engine is just a resistive load ..and therefore produces back pressure on a totally sensible series circuit model below the filter.
dnewton3
Staff member
Sometimes the math and reality don't equate. That typically means the wrong mathematical model has been applied, and a different/new one must be sought. All that being said ...
I question the sanity and logic of anyone that would claim my acquaintance!
I question the sanity and logic of anyone that would claim my acquaintance!
Last edited:
If the bypass valve is not in the front (threaded) end, I won't run it.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Originally Posted By: TallPaul
If the bypass valve is not in the front (threaded) end, I won't run it.
Filter BIGOT of BITOG!!!!
If the bypass valve is not in the front (threaded) end, I won't run it.
Filter BIGOT of BITOG!!!!
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Quote:
I question the sanity and logic of anyone that would claim my acquaintance!
I guess it's sorta like an off center Pall Mall "Where peculiar people congregate". My wife has asserted that I'm a charter member of the Misfit Club.
I question the sanity and logic of anyone that would claim my acquaintance!
I guess it's sorta like an off center Pall Mall "Where peculiar people congregate". My wife has asserted that I'm a charter member of the Misfit Club.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
(Taiwanese/OZ lip sync engaged) Ah-Julian ..you have, once again, evaded my assassins (engage facial animations with eyebrows raised and toothy smile). I shall not underestimate you again. (extended lip movements and facial gestures).
Odd ..often my thoughts do appear to be tentacles ..reaching and contouring "around" obstacles to reach some cache of enlightenment. It's all very chaotic in there.
Odd ..often my thoughts do appear to be tentacles ..reaching and contouring "around" obstacles to reach some cache of enlightenment. It's all very chaotic in there.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
My thing with propulsion? "Cobbled heap"?
I didn't bookmark that point (or tag it with a buoy in my rough seas). As you can see, the chaos is thriving. If only I could share the tempest in my upper thought processes.
(shhh- I didn't want to let on about our sessions in the "mind well")
(shhh- I didn't want to let on about our sessions in the "mind well")
- Status
Similar threads
