Nissan Ester 5W30-'08 Infiniti G37, 4.5k mi...Bad.

[JoeFromPA]

Ya know, this thread is a great case study about why I stopped visiting this forum as much.

....

OP - You drove a newish car on a track day during the hotter months with an oil that is shown to shear down a grade in normal use. Your engine is re-programmed, so I'm guessing you might have a higher redline than stock, or you could be running pig-rich, or you could be running lean under some conditions.

I'm guessing that on your track day, you saw your oil film strength fail you for any of the reasons named above: too much fuel in oil, too lean of engine conditions, or too high of revving for the oil in it's state at that time.

You got resulting engine wear.

It's not the end of the world, and your engine is fine. Maybe you cut it's life short by 100,000 miles, maybe you'll never notice a difference....it's hard to say, because a worn bearing can denigrate rapidly once it has a surface scar, or it can perform just fine indefinitely.

Don't use your UOA for any "proof" of a problem. You don't even know what it means, and you took the car outside of warranty conditions.

Just switch to a better oil (the manual will show you what grades are acceptable, and I'm guessing 5w40 is a good grade). Yes, the engine will recommend 5w30. They all do. But look in the manual to the engineers oil spec table for different temps.

Then breathe easy and evaluate whether the engine re-programming was a good idea. And determine if you want to trade in this car when the warranty is up.

Don't pay Dyson's fee. He's great and all, but this isn't a rocket science situation.

 

[JonnyO03]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Ya know, this thread is a great case study about why I stopped visiting this forum as much.

....

OP - You drove a newish car on a track day during the hotter months with an oil that is shown to shear down a grade in normal use. Your engine is re-programmed, so I'm guessing you might have a higher redline than stock, or you could be running pig-rich, or you could be running lean under some conditions.

I'm guessing that on your track day, you saw your oil film strength fail you for any of the reasons named above: too much fuel in oil, too lean of engine conditions, or too high of revving for the oil in it's state at that time.

You got resulting engine wear.

It's not the end of the world, and your engine is fine. Maybe you cut it's life short by 100,000 miles, maybe you'll never notice a difference....it's hard to say, because a worn bearing can denigrate rapidly once it has a surface scar, or it can perform just fine indefinitely.

Don't use your UOA for any "proof" of a problem. You don't even know what it means, and you took the car outside of warranty conditions.

Just switch to a better oil (the manual will show you what grades are acceptable, and I'm guessing 5w40 is a good grade). Yes, the engine will recommend 5w30. They all do. But look in the manual to the engineers oil spec table for different temps.

Then breathe easy and evaluate whether the engine re-programming was a good idea. And determine if you want to trade in this car when the warranty is up.

Don't pay Dyson's fee. He's great and all, but this isn't a rocket science situation.


Step (1): Get off your high horse.

Step (2): Actually read the thread. Your assumptions are completely wrong.

Step (3): Stop being a ****.

 

[JonnyO03]

Anyhow,

For the non-***clowns who know how to read, thanks for helping out. My plan is to do a short OCI, and put in the Nissan Ester again. I'll see how the that UOA looks and go from there. I've got several long road trips this summer, so I'll have plenty of opportunities to add some miles and see if this is a trend or not.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JonnyO03
Step (1): Get off your high horse.

Step (2): Actually read the thread. Your assumptions are completely wrong.

Step (3): Stop being a ****.

I feel like this is a better response than the one I was going to write. +1 to you, sir.

 

[wolfc70]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Ya know, this thread is a great case study about why I stopped visiting this forum as much.

....

OP - You drove a newish car on a track day during the hotter months with an oil that is shown to shear down a grade in normal use. Your engine is re-programmed, so I'm guessing you might have a higher redline than stock, or you could be running pig-rich, or you could be running lean under some conditions.

I'm guessing that on your track day, you saw your oil film strength fail you for any of the reasons named above: too much fuel in oil, too lean of engine conditions, or too high of revving for the oil in it's state at that time.

You got resulting engine wear.

It's not the end of the world, and your engine is fine. Maybe you cut it's life short by 100,000 miles, maybe you'll never notice a difference....it's hard to say, because a worn bearing can denigrate rapidly once it has a surface scar, or it can perform just fine indefinitely.

Don't use your UOA for any "proof" of a problem. You don't even know what it means, and you took the car outside of warranty conditions.

Just switch to a better oil (the manual will show you what grades are acceptable, and I'm guessing 5w40 is a good grade). Yes, the engine will recommend 5w30. They all do. But look in the manual to the engineers oil spec table for different temps.

Then breathe easy and evaluate whether the engine re-programming was a good idea. And determine if you want to trade in this car when the warranty is up.

Don't pay Dyson's fee. He's great and all, but this isn't a rocket science situation.


????

The reflash has to do with the VVEL operation, not adding more fuel or getting more power, and it was a factory TSB. The VQ37 engine has continuously variable valve lift, no throttle plate, similar to BMW's Valvetronic or Fiat's Multair systems. The TSB was to help reduce noise, nothing else. This was also the OP's first run of a newer oil, a second UOA will likely be better.

I would stay off the track in the meantime though.

 

[JoeFromPA]

My apologies for being wrong on the re-flash. I had read the entire thread, and apparently I had misread what the reflash was.


Besides that, can DoodFood or Johnny correct me anywhere else?

An ester-based oil, such as redline, will show some strong cleaning activity with metal spikes on an older engine with deposits it's removing. Not like this on a practically new engine.

He had a lead spike combined with iron: this isn't rocket science, he had contact and not just normal leaching of dissolved metals into the oil. If it wasn't for the trending I wouldn't state that.

My point is that UOAs are practically useless for telling extent of damage and they are in no way evidence of some sort of engine problem. [censored], we've had UOAs on hear with over 100ppm of lead on a similar sized sump, and the engine itself was running fine.

Jonny - I wasn't saying YOU don't know what the UOA means. I was sayign that it's impossible to look at your UOA and determine if there's some sort of problem, or if you just spun it up faster then the oil film could maintain seperation.

Again, my apologies for sounding like a ****. I did mis-read the engine reprogramming. Aside from that, and not interpreting my comments to be mean, can you point out where I"m wrong?

Also, why would you run this oil again? I realize trending could be a good reason, but it apparently can't handle it's viscosity even over a short run and you are running it in an engine that's not as well balanced in the upper rpms....

 

[JoeFromPA]

Just to add a little more: this is not a continuation of break-in. Your lead spike was significant and not within a "noise" range, and with your trending we can see just how nicely lead was decreasing. [censored], on your brand new engine first UOA you were showing alot less lead.

Regarding oil choice: Your manual will state that you can use any SL or SM rated oils. I would recommend taking it up on that and switching to something alot more robust. Especially if you are doing track days.

There is a perfectly good reason why most people who do track days either:

1. Switch to a heavier duty oil beforehand
2. Run a heavier duty oil to begin with

Again, you were running an oil that sheared down a grade in a fairly short period of time. You ran this oil on the track.

Your UOA indicates you had metal-on-metal contact.

The recommendations I've read so far have been:

- Use a diffeerent oil
-Have [censored] re-test
-Involve Dyson

But none of those were actual recommendations. They were just "Well [censored] could be wrong". "Well, Dyon might tell you yo something different", "Well, your engine oil didn't hold up so switch"

I think your choice of oils is fine for daily duty. But I wouldn't want to run it longer than 5k, or do track days on it. Which is a shame,cause this engine should easily run long drain inteervals when street driven.

Apologies for any mistyping.....the entry window is jumping around on me like crazy.

 

[JonnyO03]

Joe - No worries. Thanks for being civil.

There are a couple other points, but I'm running out the door for work. Here's a few real fast:

- Regarding June, it wasn't hot...it was 40 degrees F, and cloudy with cold mist
- All the other UOAs were of different dinos during the break-in period. I had *no idea, nor any data* that this oil would be shearing down like the others did (yes, I could have assumed, but since it was TSB-recommended I had higher hopes for it).
- Regarding warranty conditions, the only thing I can find in my warranty for uncovered misuse is "Racing". Now, that's an argument between Infiniti and myself if it comes to it, but I doubt 3x 20 min sessions on a road course from a novice driver like me count as racing. Stupid kids could flog the car harder on a back road if they tried.

- And, that was the *only* track day I've ever done. Just haven't had time to make it out again. And I won't be doing another for at least the next couple drains, so I'm just worried about daily-driver stability for now.

Cool? I do like the suggestions on the heavier oils, especially if I go back to the track, but it won't happen for awhile, so I'm content with sticking to the factory-recommended Ester Dino to keep that variable out of the mix.

 

[Sunstealer]

I have an '09 G37 with the same engine. The owner's manual for mine ONLY lists 5W-30 as the recommended viscosity. No ranges are given for different temperatures like some manuals list.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I would highly recommend a 5w-40 for owners who have not yet pulled a UOA. If that UOA looks good, try a 30 weight next winter. A Euro 30 or M1 0w-40 is another option. Still, the results w/Nissan so far are worrying.

 

[JoeFromPA]

I always try to keep it civil man. I realize that with no prior comments I could've come across poorly in my first post; I get frustrated on here honestly. UOAs are simultaneously touted as a great way to monitor stuff and a terrible diagnosis device.

They have their uses, but your UOA is a great example of where problems arise.

Good to know about the ambient temp. Here's a BITOG posting about a brand new 370z which was overheating with 20 minute track runs in 70 degree weather: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1362340



Now, your car didn't apparerently enter the "limp" mode as described here. I'm positing that your temps were high enough that at or near redline, you were experiencing minor metal on metal contact.

My honest opinion is that you are fine. Minimize such events (obviously) and continue to drive it with security. I'd still recommend using a thicker oil effective immediately.

Plenty of cars have overheating events, gasket leaks, etc. that cause bigger lead spikes and then go on to have normal engine lifespans.

However, Isee this as being a fairly straightforward event of oil failure. Thanks my tak at least

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
he had contact and not just normal leaching of dissolved metals into the oil.


How do we know this to be true? How do you know that initial break in material wasn't scrubbed/liberated where other oils failed to do so?

While everything you say could surely be true, I don't think I would have such depth of conviction where a different base stock was used and was accompanied by an "irrational" blip in metals.

In my case it is the trending that makes me think this could be a one time residual clean up.

Now if the same thing happened with (almost) anything but this ester oil (I don't know the particulars) ..then I'd be right there with you.

This can only be isolated by using the same oil over the same duration and seeing if the condition retreats to noise level.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Hi Gary,

You are right. I am making a statement, and drawing a line in the sand, based upon the available information. However, here's why I'm convinced:

His first ever UOA, where you'd see the highest "break-in" lead that the car SHOULD see, was only 60% of the lead seen in this sample.

Ester-based metal spikes are, to my knowledge, a function of cleaning oil deposits that have bonded to metal in the past and held on. I don't think he has the normal deposits that form over the length of time needed to see that type of spike. Further, if his spike was at 10ppm (back in the initial break-in range), I'd be more inclined to this.

Lastly, he tracked this car during this sample. An engine with a history of overheating (generally speaking) on an oil that sheared down a grade in 4500 miles and is $10/quart.

I don't see this event happening again, period. And if he'd like to see if it may be the esters instead of tracking, I'd recommend switching back to a non-ester oil and then BACK to this oil again.

My interpretation is that this is distinctly related to a lubrication failure under extreme conditions. That's my take.

Joe

P.s. When was the last time we saw a high dollar oil based on esters shear down a grade within 4500 miles on a street driven, stock car with a single tracking event? I know we don't have alot of history with this particular oil, but that's ridiculous to me...considering how he characterzed his tracking

 

[JonnyO03]

Originally Posted By: Sunstealer
I have an '09 G37 with the same engine. The owner's manual for mine ONLY lists 5W-30 as the recommended viscosity. No ranges are given for different temperatures like some manuals list.


Sunstealer is right - only 5W-30 is listed.

 

[JoeFromPA]

It's interesting. I just read the manual. They do not have a gradient table (which I find bizarre, since I think every manufacturer I know of has one for stuff like 120-degree ambient, towing, severe-duty use, etc.)

But they do say, "Oil viscosity
The engine oil viscosity or thickness changes
with temperature. Because of this, it is important
that the engine oil viscosity be selected
based on the temperatures at which the vehicle
will be operated before the next oil change.
Choosing an oil viscosity other than that recommended
could cause serious engine damage."

Very bizarre. I'd still eithe run something more serious, or choose a 5w30 that I had more faith in, but that's just me.

Joe

P.s. I'm using to my Legacy GT, which specs 5w30 but runs just peachy on 15w50

 

[edhackett]

The reason only 5W-30 is listed is because that is the oil viscosity they used for CAFE certification. By law that's the only oil they can recommend. It doesn't have anything to do with the oil being the best viscosity for all conditions in your engine.

Ed

 

[JonfromCB]

BINGO! Ed is right-on. I'm a Infiniti nut and have researched
this whole VQ37/VVEL/Nissan Ester Oil issue
in depth and almost to a point of a sickness and
compulsion. This oil is all about incrreasing fleet
mileage by significantly reducing friction directly
at the high friction points in the VVEL system....AND
reducing emissions through the use of solid inert friction
modifiers (carbon nano-particles suspended in a very
specific proprietory blend of esters)...as compared to
using hydrocarbon friction modifiers that are "dirtier"
when burned. Since Nissan Ester is the FF, it's what
Nissan Recommends....that's the Law, like it or not
and that's how and why Nissan "recommends it" in
the owners manual.

This engine is VERY hard on oil, It generates tramendous amounts of heat in the VVEL system whenever the throttle gets opened-up....even for short bursts...period. There are literally dozens of cases of noise, limp-mode and VVEL actuator failure cases on the forums . Redline, Motul, and German Csstrol are the only oils I've personally seen that are up to the task in this engine...UP seems promising.

If you love this engine, short OCIs with high heat
handling oil is in order.

 

[d00df00d]

Interesting. Is the problem with inferior oils that they break down, or that they fail to protect?

 

[ccs v2.0]

Sounds like the problem is that Nissan wants their cake and eat it too with wear vs. gas mileage.

 

[edhackett]

The problem is not with the oils. It's Nissan's engineering. IMHO the G37 is just another in their history of poorly engineered/executed vehicles. Sentra head gaskets, catalytic converters getting sucked into the engine, and the Titan rear differentials being recent examples.

Ed (Admittedly not a Nissan fan. OK, maybe the original 240Z.)