New EPA coal regs = $180 billion

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Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

The reality is that everything has an effect and that industrial fallout does effect a car's paint. If I want to keep my car looking like new for a LONG time, it means more work. In time it means more cost. It isnt your place to define what is "good enough" protection for my vehicle.

And we haven't even started on Mercury...
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Dont know that I buy the job loss bit.


If you lived in a state who's economy revolved around coal you would.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

The reality is that everything has an effect and that industrial fallout does effect a car's paint. If I want to keep my car looking like new for a LONG time, it means more work. In time it means more cost. It isnt your place to define what is "good enough" protection for my vehicle.

And we haven't even started on Mercury...


I was a painter for 10 years. I painted my own car 15 years ago and there is no "acid rain" problem. I never noticed it on many other cars either. Just once in a while.

My car has been all over the country as well from the east coast to the west coast and has been outside the majority of the time. It's been waxed 3 times in the last 15 years.
Factory paint jobs are sometimes just not very high quality.

As for mercury? If it's so dangerous why are they mandating light bulbs loaded with it?
 
Loaded??!? Lol.

Your standards may not be as high as mine when it comes to keeping a car's finish. Again, who are you to mandate what is good enough?

I've seen enough paint etching on my cars under certain conditions to knowthat it is real.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

Your article states that jet exhaust is one of the worse causes of car paint damage. Do you fly on airplanes much?
 
Back to the original article, and I've looked through the attached spreadsheet...it's a pretty detailed analysis of "projected costs", with absolutely no defence in what costs what, and why ?

What ARE the regs, what are the impacts,and who's been relying on 60 years of grandfathering ?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

Your article states that jet exhaust is one of the worse causes of car paint damage. Do you fly on airplanes much?


That's irrelevant. When I fly, I'm deriving value from the flight for myself. When you fly, or in the case of powerplants, when you run your air conditioner, I get no value from it.

But that's part of the free market too, right??? What's right for me can be right, but what's right for you might be wrong... It's the golden rule - he who has the gold rules...
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Loaded??!? Lol.

Your standards may not be as high as mine when it comes to keeping a car's finish. Again, who are you to mandate what is good enough?

I've seen enough paint etching on my cars under certain conditions to knowthat it is real.


Increase electric rates by 11-25% & cost numerous jobs, or wax the car 1-2x/year. The solution seems obvious to me.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

Your article states that jet exhaust is one of the worse causes of car paint damage. Do you fly on airplanes much?


That's irrelevant. When I fly, I'm deriving value from the flight for myself. When you fly, or in the case of powerplants, when you run your air conditioner, I get no value from it.



That is one of the dumbest and most hypocritical things I've ever read or heard.
 
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Dont know that I buy the job loss bit.


If you lived in a state who's economy revolved around coal you would.


+ infinity (not the car)
 
Originally Posted By: Gearhead
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Loaded??!? Lol.

Your standards may not be as high as mine when it comes to keeping a car's finish. Again, who are you to mandate what is good enough?

I've seen enough paint etching on my cars under certain conditions to knowthat it is real.


Increase electric rates by 11-25% & cost numerous jobs, or wax the car 1-2x/year. The solution seems obvious to me.


Obvious in what way? Being from a non-coal state, and NOT desiring to have any more coal power plants in my backyard, I think that my ridiculous tongue-in-cheek commentary is no less valid than those who care only about coal producing state jobs or cheap power at all costs.

Obvious how? Me having to do extra work in the name of cheaper energy so you can run your AC longer? You can keep your job? See, Im not saying my commentary is right, true, or reflects any real viewpoint that anyone holds, but here is the thing: Youre more than willing to relegate me to having to wax my car 1-2x/year... Well that's kind of like a tax or imposing something on me, isnt it? Just because it may be labor hours instead of dollars doesnt mean that it isnt equivalent. Yet you pretty freely volunteer me up to do extra work in that situation. How is that NOT imposing something just opposite?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer for my air quality to NOT be like Beijing or Shanghai, thank you very much.

Im in NO way for excess regulation, but free reign to do what is cheapest in terms of coal power is not my most desired end result. Power is a very tough thing to go through, but the pollution, ash, mercury, sulfur, etc just cannot be denied. And I for one would happily pay 11-24% more to NOT have that stuff spewing in my backyard.

It's as simple as that. Belittle my comments, that's fine. But (a) acid rain IS a consideration, and (b) everybody can have an opinion, so I threw out a hokey one to create an opposing viewpoint.
 
Originally Posted By: wallyuwl
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Can you define how it is not? I'm not keen on my car's paint being damaged so some idiot can leave their nightlight on. Where does my right to my property cross against someone else's luxury?

Your article states that jet exhaust is one of the worse causes of car paint damage. Do you fly on airplanes much?


That's irrelevant. When I fly, I'm deriving value from the flight for myself. When you fly, or in the case of powerplants, when you run your air conditioner, I get no value from it.



That is one of the dumbest and most hypocritical things I've ever read or heard.


Really? Or is it just self-serving? I dont care about you, you dont care about me. We all get along just fine, right?

See, ridiculous comments like I made there are just a tad bit more obvious, but no different. My comments about acid rain are as self serving as someone caring about coal jobs in KY or their electric rates going up.

All the knee-jerk reaction about the EPA doesnt mean that there isnt a place and basis for it. At the same time, it can be excessive and go to far. But for anyone to deny the basic realities of some of these processes just because of their own self interests is no different than some ridiculous commentary that I might throw out.

And since when do we really care about jobs anyway? We shop at wal-mart and buy Chinese widgets that are cheapened by offshoring jobs... So why do coal jobs matter exactly to you?

We are supposed to let people drive what they want and guzzle energy how they want when selecting a vehicle, right? Pay a premium for what you want, that's great, right? Let the free market work and people vote with their wallets, right? Im not belittling it... but if Im willing to pay a premium for my power/electricity to NOT come from a guzzling source that pollutes excessively, etc., somehow that is bad?

What is the metric here? Gross tonnage of pollution? Who can care less? Some of the enviro-stuff is hokey, sure, but as I said before, if I can pay a few cents more and have a wind turbine in my backyard versus a coal powerplant, guess which one Ill pick? Its not a tree hugging or not argument, its not a jobs argument, its nothing but being able to speak for what one would want freely, and NOT have to live in the midst of an industrial cesspool. Production and excess pollution dont have to be out of phase...
 
Ever notice that the enviro-stiffs do NOT live their convictions. If coal produced electricity is so evil--just don't use it. Lead, follow or get out of the way! Jhon--Las Vegas.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Back to the original article, and I've looked through the attached spreadsheet...it's a pretty detailed analysis of "projected costs", with absolutely no defence in what costs what, and why ?

What ARE the regs, what are the impacts,and who's been relying on 60 years of grandfathering ?


+1, it is pretty weak, and while Im not necessarily the biggest fan of NG generation, it isnt clear how/why the changeover in generation to meet the lost capacity of the coal plants that seemingly will be retired/abandonedwould not require construction/maintenance/operators.

Could it be that coal is more manpower intensive than the apparent NG plant baseline? If so, then we were trading low resource costs for lower labor costs perhaps?

So many things that are unclear there... But that is the case as it is "research" funded by a group with an interest, so it has to say what the paying entity wants it to say...
 
Originally Posted By: Torino
Ever notice that the enviro-stiffs do NOT live their convictions. If coal produced electricity is so evil--just don't use it. Lead, follow or get out of the way! Jhon--Las Vegas.


Its a good point. The thing is, there is mass hypocrisy and looking out for one's immediate interests on BOTH sides of the fence. Because of that, nobody can come up with a reasonable long-term strategy and plan that has the population's true best interest in mind...

That is unfortunate, and it has come out in this thread just like anywhere else.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Loaded??!? Lol.

Your standards may not be as high as mine when it comes to keeping a car's finish. Again, who are you to mandate what is good enough?

I've seen enough paint etching on my cars under certain conditions to knowthat it is real.


Acid rain doesn't cause "paint etching". Acid rain causes small pencil lead sized "spots" on the finish. There are numerous things that could cause "paint etching". Acid rain is over hyped.

As I said, factory paint jobs leave something to be desired as far as durability in some cases. A properly applied aftermarket finish will last almost forever.

My standards were probably far higher than yours considering the vehicles I used to paint and my customers were as picky or pickier than you are, believe me.

As for my own car. You're right. I don't care about the finish too much any longer but I could take a buffer to the hood and it would look like the day I painted it aside from 15 years worth of rock chips along the front edge. It's a driver, not a show car

As far as mandates? It seems to me that eco-weenies are the ones doing all the mandating. I just want to be left alone without someone telling me what I should drive and how to live. It is THEIR mandates that have everything all messed up.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trvlr500
As I said, factory paint jobs leave something to be desired as far as durability in some cases. A properly applied aftermarket finish will last almost forever.


I guess that most of the repairers and aftermarketters in Oz could learn a thing or ten from the OEMs.

What about your limestone public, and concrete buildings dissolving ?

Who pays for that ?

How, Who, and when ?
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Gearhead
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Loaded??!? Lol.

Your standards may not be as high as mine when it comes to keeping a car's finish. Again, who are you to mandate what is good enough?

I've seen enough paint etching on my cars under certain conditions to knowthat it is real.


Increase electric rates by 11-25% & cost numerous jobs, or wax the car 1-2x/year. The solution seems obvious to me.


Obvious in what way? Being from a non-coal state, and NOT desiring to have any more coal power plants in my backyard, I think that my ridiculous tongue-in-cheek commentary is no less valid than those who care only about coal producing state jobs or cheap power at all costs.

Obvious how? Me having to do extra work in the name of cheaper energy so you can run your AC longer? You can keep your job? See, Im not saying my commentary is right, true, or reflects any real viewpoint that anyone holds, but here is the thing: Youre more than willing to relegate me to having to wax my car 1-2x/year... Well that's kind of like a tax or imposing something on me, isnt it? Just because it may be labor hours instead of dollars doesnt mean that it isnt equivalent. Yet you pretty freely volunteer me up to do extra work in that situation. How is that NOT imposing something just opposite?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd prefer for my air quality to NOT be like Beijing or Shanghai, thank you very much.

Im in NO way for excess regulation, but free reign to do what is cheapest in terms of coal power is not my most desired end result. Power is a very tough thing to go through, but the pollution, ash, mercury, sulfur, etc just cannot be denied. And I for one would happily pay 11-24% more to NOT have that stuff spewing in my backyard.

It's as simple as that. Belittle my comments, that's fine. But (a) acid rain IS a consideration, and (b) everybody can have an opinion, so I threw out a hokey one to create an opposing viewpoint.



Your belittling comment to the original poster about night light's deserved the wax jest.

I'm glad you are willing to pay the 11-25% increase, but, how will your clients or employer compete with companies overseas who don't have to be saddled with this burden? Capitol travels round the globe with click of a mouse. Does this make the USA more competitive and secure the investment dollars we crave? Where's the balance between lost economic output vs incremental health benefit?

Regarding the regulation, I'd like to see this proposed rule/legislation be put to the public on a single issue ballot as so many will be affected. I wonder what percentage of voters think our air quality is like Beijing or Shanghai? With a real estimated unemployment/under-employment rate of 15-18%, how would be the result?

Bottom line, the public isn't aware of ALL costs of these decisions made by our federal government and impacts of environmental lawsuits. It's the same federal government who employs lawmakers with a 19% approval rating. Most time voters aren't allowed to decide the outcome either way.

I don't work in an industry associated with any of the affected industries. Nothing to do with the argument, but I'm proud of my state. WV was one of six states who didn't experience a budget shortfall in 2009 & 2010, and projected the same in 2012. This kind of legislative action will most likely help us join the rest of the states with budget deficits.
 
Quote:
American Electric Power said that if all of the federal Environmental Protection Agency's proposed rules took effect, the company would shut down five coal-fired power plants in 2014, retire some others in 2014 or 2015, and convert several from coal to natural gas -- at a cost of 600 power plant jobs.

Although some jobs would be created from the installation of emission reduction equipment, the jobs lost would represent an annual payroll of about $40 million, the company said.

The utility would be required to invest in the range of $6 billion to $8 billion in pollution control equipment through the end of the decade, the company said. That would be on top of the $7.2 billion American Electric Power has invested since 1990 to reduce emissions from its coal-fired power plants, the company said.

And:
Quote:
Morris said, "Businesses that have benefited from reasonably priced coal-fueled power will face the impact of electricity price increases ranging from 10 percent to more than 35 percent just for compliance with these environmental rules at a time when they are still trying to recover from the economic downturn."

http://www.dailymail.com/ap/ApTopStories/201106091278
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2

That's irrelevant. When I fly, I'm deriving value from the flight for myself. When you fly, or in the case of powerplants, when you run your air conditioner, I get no value from it.

But that's part of the free market too, right??? What's right for me can be right, but what's right for you might be wrong... It's the golden rule - he who has the gold rules...

!! That is some nice circular reasoning going on their. How exactly is it that I get value out of you flying in a plane? You are paying to go on the airplane which dumps caustic debris everywhere, so your activity is adding to the problem. The guy under the flight path is getting no value from you flying, either.
Quote:
Because of that, nobody can come up with a reasonable long-term strategy and plan that has the population's true best interest in mind...

I thought you weren't for central planning?
 
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