NASCAR emissions

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Kira
That's what I thought. I've always heard that NASCAR cars are low tech.
Calling a NASCAR Low tech is a sign of ignorance of the product. Next door to one of my rentals a neighbor builds race car frames " the real deal ones " He had a NASCAR engine and oil system there ,nothing low tech about any of the race cars. Nothing even close to a stock car. Well maybe that it has four tires .


I wouldn't exactly call the carburetors they used up until 3 or 4 years ago high tech. And neither is the throttle body injection they now use. Nor the live rear axle or the pushrod engine.

You can have complex ... but it isn't high tech. Complex is playing around with suspension geometry and using a live axle. High tech is using the latest SLA design independent rear suspension to get 4 wheel steering from it. (yes I am aware that you can get 4 wheel steering out of a live rear)

I imagine I will be another 50 years before what they switch to multiport injection, direct injection or even electronic throttles.

They are quite a ways behind the tech curve ...

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Since NASCAR went to EFI a few years ago, they probably are running pretty close to LMBT conditions already. Since the cars don't have catalytic converters, they don't need to inject extra fuel to reduce EGT.


This.

The change to EFI produced visible differences in NASCAR races- no more black smoke plume (often transitioning into a jet of flame) on deceleration through the corners as there was with carbs. They run E15, and are tuned for both power and fuel efficiency (within limits) because fuel strategy wins at least a handful of NASCAR races every year. About the only thing they could do now would be to install catcons, and I suspect that's a huge safety no-no (wouldn't want white-hot fragments of catalyst core flying around in collisions).

As to the comments about NASCAR producing little or no viable R&D, I agree that's mostly true. A few things do work backward, but mostly to do with materials since that's the ticket for getting those pushrod engines to turn 10,000 RPM reliably (and for the past several years they've mandated rear gear ratios so the RPM has scaled back to about 8k max). The other thing that makes me angry about NASCAR is that they went to a common engine architecture a few years ago, even though they still "branded" and a few factory engineers are involved in a limited way. About the last factory-specific innovations were in circa 2001 when Dodge returned and could run a bigger bore than anyone else due to the bore-center spacings on the LA block. But of course that was immediately countered by a 'maximum bore size' rule in addition to the 358CI limit, beginning the final slide into commonality over the first decade of the 2000's. For the last several years, you see "Toyota," "Chevrolet" and "Ford" (and up until a 2 years ago "Dodge") smallblock engines, but all sporting Ford-style equally-spaced exhaust ports and front-mounted distributors. Nevermind the fact that Toyota has never built an iron-block pushrod v8... EVER. And of course all the rear axles are Ford 9" based.

 

[billt460]

Toyota in NASCAR belongs about as much as Rosie O'Donnell at a runway model convention.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Charlie1935
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I thought NASCARs were running E100.


IndyCar does.




Indy car fuel


To compensate for the gain of power due to the use of ethanol, the displacement was reverted to 3500 cc. Since ethanol gets worse fuel mileage than methanol, the fuel tanks in the car were increased.


This is just wrong. Methanol has less energy content (kJ/kg) than ethanol. The engines probably lost some power when the transition was made to ethanol.

 

[JHZR2]

While maybe NASCAR informs some future designs, I really wish NASCAR was a high-end/high-tech version of a stock car you can buy. No two door versions of sedans with stickers for headlights.

Then push all the tech - forced induction with DI and whatever else. And really use it to connect car designs from racing to reality.

 

[BikeWhisperer]

Nascar runs Sunoco E15

Indycar runs Sunoco E85

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: Charlie1935

The fumes are often compared with the sweet smell of apple cider or apple cobbler.

Ed

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
While maybe NASCAR informs some future designs, I really wish NASCAR was a high-end/high-tech version of a stock car you can buy. No two door versions of sedans with stickers for headlights.

Then push all the tech - forced induction with DI and whatever else. And really use it to connect car designs from racing to reality.


Hellcat and Z/06 blower engines and EcoBoost turbo engines in NASCAR? Hellcat yeah!! I'm all for that! (and guess which one would win?)

Toyota would get trounced into oblivion, though, so it will never happen. That's exactly why NASCAR is a spec series now. One manufacturer always had something obscenely powerful that one or more of the other guys had no interest in competing with OFF the race track, so they started shrinking the allowable design parameters to something pretty much all manufacturers built for their street cars (normally aspirated smallblock v8s at the time, which has stuck until now).

Truly opening it up to production engines would inevitably allow one or another manufacturers to dominate the way Ford and Chrysler alternately dominated in the 60s, and fans would whine because someone would win by 5 laps rather than having those Kurt Busch/Ricky Craven door-banging 200 millisecond difference finishes. And as for using production bodies and chassis? Too hard to make a production car as race-safe as a tube chassis car. 200-mph oval track car safety is quite a bit different than air-bags, 3-point belts, and crumple zones the way production cars are.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Kira
That's what I thought. I've always heard that NASCAR cars are low tech.
Calling a NASCAR Low tech is a sign of ignorance of the product. Next door to one of my rentals a neighbor builds race car frames " the real deal ones " He had a NASCAR engine and oil system there ,nothing low tech about any of the race cars. Nothing even close to a stock car. Well maybe that it has four tires .


I wouldn't exactly call the carburetors they used up until 3 or 4 years ago high tech. And neither is the throttle body injection they now use. Nor the live rear axle or the pushrod engine.

You can have complex ... but it isn't high tech. Complex is playing around with suspension geometry and using a live axle. High tech is using the latest SLA design independent rear suspension to get 4 wheel steering from it. (yes I am aware that you can get 4 wheel steering out of a live rear)

I imagine I will be another 50 years before what they switch to multiport injection, direct injection or even electronic throttles.

They are quite a ways behind the tech curve ...


Your time has come!! They use multiport already. They use a Holley 4bbl throttle body that replaced the Holley Dominator 4bbl carb. They use rails and 8 injectors in a conventional multiport setup. The ECU is made by McLaren with a Freescale ECU.

See multi-port.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Kira
That's what I thought. I've always heard that NASCAR cars are low tech.
Calling a NASCAR Low tech is a sign of ignorance of the product. Next door to one of my rentals a neighbor builds race car frames " the real deal ones " He had a NASCAR engine and oil system there ,nothing low tech about any of the race cars. Nothing even close to a stock car. Well maybe that it has four tires .


I wouldn't exactly call the carburetors they used up until 3 or 4 years ago high tech. And neither is the throttle body injection they now use. Nor the live rear axle or the pushrod engine.

You can have complex ... but it isn't high tech. Complex is playing around with suspension geometry and using a live axle. High tech is using the latest SLA design independent rear suspension to get 4 wheel steering from it. (yes I am aware that you can get 4 wheel steering out of a live rear)

I imagine I will be another 50 years before what they switch to multiport injection, direct injection or even electronic throttles.

They are quite a ways behind the tech curve ...


Your time has come!! They use multiport already. They use a Holley 4bbl throttle body that replaced the Holley Dominator 4bbl carb. They use rails and 8 injectors in a conventional multiport setup. The ECU is made by McLaren with a Freescale ECU.

See multi-port.


Stock- no. Primitive- not really. NASCAR engines are mechanical art. There's a lot of cool stuff going on in there, but little of it is applicable to street cars. Just look at the oiling system, for example. Highly effective under crazy G-loading... but not practical for street use with that belt drive.

 

[bdcardinal]

But NASCAR is not supposed to be about trickle down to street cars. They had to change to a tube frame body because drivers were getting killed or seriously injured in accidents. As far as the engines not being related, I don't care and the average fan doesn't care. I appreciate the sport for what it is, not what it should be. I used to think they should change, but when you think about what the teams do within the rulebook provided it is impressive.

Last year Tony Stewart set a lap speed over 200mph at Texas, a 1.5mi oval. If he had an accident at that speed in his Cup car, all that would have happened would be a trip to the infield medical center and they would tell him to lose weight. If that was in a production Chevy SS, he would have been dead.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Stock- no. Primitive- not really. NASCAR engines are mechanical art. There's a lot of cool stuff going on in there, but little of it is applicable to street cars. Just look at the oiling system, for example. Highly effective under crazy G-loading... but not practical for street use with that belt drive.


How many stages to those dry sump pumps??

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
While maybe NASCAR informs some future designs, I really wish NASCAR was a high-end/high-tech version of a stock car you can buy. No two door versions of sedans with stickers for headlights.

Then push all the tech - forced induction with DI and whatever else. And really use it to connect car designs from racing to reality.


I hated it when they went away from the body style conforming to a percentage of what was sold in the showroom. Now the only difference is the decals, all the bodys are the same.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Toyota in NASCAR belongs about as much as Rosie O'Donnell at a runway model convention.

Why doesn't Toyota belong?

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Stock- no. Primitive- not really. NASCAR engines are mechanical art. There's a lot of cool stuff going on in there, but little of it is applicable to street cars. Just look at the oiling system, for example. Highly effective under crazy G-loading... but not practical for street use with that belt drive.


How many stages to those dry sump pumps??


6, I think. 5 scavenge stages, 1 pressure stage.

 

[nolesfan]

I don't hate NASCAR or the technologies it uses (though I find the racing boring), but for racing and tech applications I much prefer sportscar racing. I'm not too excited about the merger of Grand-Am and ALMS, but to me the technologies and racing is far superior and much more exciting. Besides the prototype classes, the rest of the cars are bought from dealers and then race prepped, very different from ground up race builds (like NASCAR's various series). I personally like the fact that this racing is the R&D for future street applications. Different hybrid systems, diesels, DI turbo, NA V8, etc. All different approaches to a common goal of speed, efficiency and reliability. All things that would be great to see NASCAR embrace.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
While maybe NASCAR informs some future designs, I really wish NASCAR was a high-end/high-tech version of a stock car you can buy. No two door versions of sedans with stickers for headlights.

Then push all the tech - forced induction with DI and whatever else. And really use it to connect car designs from racing to reality.


I hated it when they went away from the body style conforming to a percentage of what was sold in the showroom. Now the only difference is the decals, all the bodys are the same.


They actually pulled back from that last year and now there are actual sheet metal differences among the "brands," but they try to equalize the aero drag in other ways. The first couple years of the 'Car of Tomorrow' were all absolutely identical. I don't know if its now like it was some decades ago when a few key body panels (hood, trunk lid, roof IIRC) had to actually be production parts. I kinda don't think so since there are all these anti-flip pop up aero panels incorporated now.

 

[earlyre]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...I don't know if its now like it was some decades ago when a few key body panels (hood, trunk lid, roof IIRC) had to actually be production parts. I kinda don't think so since there are all these anti-flip pop up aero panels incorporated now.


it's not like that no.
but the Ford "Fusions" they use in cup, do use an actual grille, while the Chevy's and Toyota's are just decals

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Stock- no. Primitive- not really. NASCAR engines are mechanical art. There's a lot of cool stuff going on in there, but little of it is applicable to street cars. Just look at the oiling system, for example. Highly effective under crazy G-loading... but not practical for street use with that belt drive.


How many stages to those dry sump pumps??
The heads don't drain the oil in the heads like a normal engine they kinda fill with oil to dampen and cool the valve springs then are scavenges with lines back to the sump. The engines are space age.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: CT8
The engines are space age.


Just remember the "Space Age" started in the 1950's.