How many layers can moly plate before it won't plate? Not the thickness, but NUMBER of plates or layers...Anyone Know?
Moly layers
- Thread starter Robbie Alexander
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39 boundry layers
I don't think it can be looked at as a "number of layers"...it's not plating, in the sense of electroplating. A Mo layer is just a VERY thin organo-metal hi pressure slip coating, that is/can be scuffed off....but it's not layers like onion skin or anything.
I have a couple theories as to why Mo is not the magic bullet everyone hopes it to be, and another theory as to why these films (the organo part) are not so great if they break down, but this thread may not place for such discussion.
I have a couple theories as to why Mo is not the magic bullet everyone hopes it to be, and another theory as to why these films (the organo part) are not so great if they break down, but this thread may not place for such discussion.
Pablo,
I'm sure a few of us here would be interested, me included.
Dave
I'm sure a few of us here would be interested, me included.
Dave
I don't know if Terry, MoleKule, or someone else with the knowledge to answer my question reading this.
I was thinking for quite some time that:
If let's say a few layers of Molybdenum are scuffed off during a high load or a dry start they get back into oil, right? Do they form some sort of sediment or they still have full functionality and can be reused, i.e. scuffed Molybdenum forms/attaches to a surface once again? I think that probably it can not be reused because Molybdenum forms some kind of hard structure with the metal surface. Thus during scuffing/high load not only pure Molybdenum but a metal it was attached to also scuffed a tiny bit. I assume this composite structure can not be reused. But that’s just an assumption.
Regards,
I was thinking for quite some time that:
If let's say a few layers of Molybdenum are scuffed off during a high load or a dry start they get back into oil, right? Do they form some sort of sediment or they still have full functionality and can be reused, i.e. scuffed Molybdenum forms/attaches to a surface once again? I think that probably it can not be reused because Molybdenum forms some kind of hard structure with the metal surface. Thus during scuffing/high load not only pure Molybdenum but a metal it was attached to also scuffed a tiny bit. I assume this composite structure can not be reused. But that’s just an assumption.
Regards,
Truth be told, Ti Alloy, Terry and Molacule don't know the answer. I asked a LONG time back, exactly what you are asking. Molacule basically said he had no direct evidence that anything harmful happens. I believe him, but he had zero proof and didn't directly address the question. Terry dittoed.
My theory is and has been the organo-thio portion of the Mo compound (it is a molecule) will break down. (I'm not saying it ALWAYS breaks down). When it does break down, the resulting partial oxidized portions can be acidic.
That said, I don't think the components are immediately harmful, nor are the very strongly acidic. But it is a reason why: a) More Mo is NOT better. B) when switching to a NON-Mo oil not to go immediately to an extended drain, and indeed the TBN will take a (hard) hit in the first 1000-2000 miles.
Great subject that REALLY needs much more study!
My theory is and has been the organo-thio portion of the Mo compound (it is a molecule) will break down. (I'm not saying it ALWAYS breaks down). When it does break down, the resulting partial oxidized portions can be acidic.
That said, I don't think the components are immediately harmful, nor are the very strongly acidic. But it is a reason why: a) More Mo is NOT better. B) when switching to a NON-Mo oil not to go immediately to an extended drain, and indeed the TBN will take a (hard) hit in the first 1000-2000 miles.
Great subject that REALLY needs much more study!
Pablo thank you very much for reply.
Regards,
Regards,
So what's the Thickness of these 39 layers>?
Do you know, or is this a guess based on something?
Is this between Two surfaces or one>?
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Pablo, as my understanding of it, there are layers. Now, to what extent - I donno!
Logic, to me dictates there has to be as well.
If there is a known thickness that it will not build up within an engine, and the Moly has to be worn away to be removed, and they slide back and fro in layers... they have to be in layers, right?
Titanium_Alloy
As far as getting used up??
Still looking into it. I get a lot of answers.
My very laymans understanding is that they can be used over again, but not always, because there is something that causes them to be worn-out, I guess.
My understanding is that when you see the levels PPM drop they are plating and or being USED up, or filling in the gap where the previous moly broke down but not all of the PPM is usable moly, a part could be unusable... kinda like some of the additives.... but not usually...
I donno, I would like more answers without spending a fortune. When I ask how long it LASTS they say forever as long as there is enough moly in the oil... when I ask how long if the oil is drained, and an oil with no moly placed there... no one can say, it's not known or its only a guess or that your guess is good as mine is the type of answers I get.
MolaKule
Staff member
I thought these questions had been answered previously, but here is the data: The moly and ferrous sulphide layer is about 20 nanometers thick, and the "decomposition products persist in an oil and continue to provide lubricity even in used oil," as does the zddp.
Philip H. Mitchel, "Oil-Soluble MOS Compounds as Lubricant additives," WEAR , Vol. 100, pp. 281-300.
Philip H. Mitchel, "Oil-Soluble MOS Compounds as Lubricant additives," WEAR , Vol. 100, pp. 281-300.
Layers ie number of not thickness
It's an interesting observation. Lubro Moly claims that their Motor Protect product, which is based on some kind of Molybdenum compound, can provide protection up to 50000 km (30000 miles).
I'm actually running Motor Protect right now in my 2.2 Ecotec engine. Right before the oil change I used Motor Clean as well. I can say with full certainty that engine was much easier to start/crank after I flushed it with Motor Clean and added Motor Protect. It had only 18500 miles when flush was done. I was thinking about doing an analysis on this oil (I added it to 3.5 quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 and 1 quart of 0W-40) if I have finances (Since I'm on a very tight budget right now I'll probably won't do the analysis
Here is the picture and description of both products:
Regards,
MolaKule
Staff member
No kidding!
Take the total film thickness and multiply it by the thickness of each molecular layer.
FT x ML/nm = #molecular layers.
Ohhha, that's plain and simple, I wish I could of figured that out on my own...so if each layer is in between each level or atom of the needed compound to make the laminar; then it would be
~40,000 per thousandth of an inch.
The Moly, when the metal is "plated"
so they bond every part of the metal or are there overlaps where part of the metal is not in contact with any moly?
~40,000 per thousandth of an inch.
The Moly, when the metal is "plated"
so they bond every part of the metal or are there overlaps where part of the metal is not in contact with any moly?
But, Robbie, you'll need to figure out how big the molecule is. Then the successive "layers" will not have the same molecular "thickness" as the first layer (and they will have a diminishing attractive force)
I still think the plating analogy is not a good one.
And lastly, ANY, "metal" bearing organo, P, thio compound has the potential to become acidic upon breakdown - but still provide lubricity/protection before that breakdown/oxidation.
I still think the plating analogy is not a good one.
And lastly, ANY, "metal" bearing organo, P, thio compound has the potential to become acidic upon breakdown - but still provide lubricity/protection before that breakdown/oxidation.
MolaKule
Staff member
The organic and synthesized moly dithiocarbamates, MoTDC, forms ONE major layer of the complex compound. There are NO successive "plating" layers as in plating a chrome bumper, etc.
The prefix "thio" denotes a relationship to the SULFUR atom replacing an oxygen atom. No phosphorus P is involved here.
MoDTC's are "stabilized" with thiadiazoles, an antioxidant and chemical stabilizer, hence, no acidic buildup.
The prefix "thio" denotes a relationship to the SULFUR atom replacing an oxygen atom. No phosphorus P is involved here.
MoDTC's are "stabilized" with thiadiazoles, an antioxidant and chemical stabilizer, hence, no acidic buildup.
Thanks Mola.
Just to be clear when I wrote P I was refering to any "metal" (or metal like complexed additive). Zn, B, Mo....
Just to be clear when I wrote P I was refering to any "metal" (or metal like complexed additive). Zn, B, Mo....
HOW or what Does this "thiadiazoles" look like on an UOA's or is it not detected... ie chemical breakdown ?
[ January 05, 2004, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Robbie Alexander ]
The 39 layers was describeded as polar lines around a magnet. The most that can generate on a single surface is 39. This information was describeded by Schaeffer's on their oil. I take this one shot at Mr. Amatuzio when you drive by late at night and see a Mobil rail car backed up to the tank farm what questions does this raise?
And not to flip out the die hard amzoil guys I use it but it is still funny!
And not to flip out the die hard amzoil guys I use it but it is still funny!
N2, it's no secret that Amsoil buys some basestocks from Exxon/Mobil.
Heck I own stock in Exxon/Mobil!!!
As for the 39layers...hmm...dunno.
Heck I own stock in Exxon/Mobil!!!
As for the 39layers...hmm...dunno.
Just passing along info I recieved. I can neither confirm nor deny it. 39 is the number they swear by. Not 38 or 40 !
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