Mobil1 15w-50, 5191miles, 02 Civic Si, built motor

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Chunky - I'm fairly familiar with K20s, and I'd recommend running something like AMSOIL SSO 0w30, Redline 5w40, etc.

You are running a built engine, sure, but it's naturally aspirated and it was built for longevity as well. I didn't see you mention tracking the car, and these engines don't build-up alot of heat, nor produce massive shearing action. Our sumps aren't too small either.

M1 15w50 is a great oil for really tough engines or track days, but it's not necessarily the best suited for daily use (I do realize that smart people like FrankN4 has run M1 15w50 in about 10 applications for over 200k miles on many of them, don't get me wrong).

Your engine would most likely benefit from an oil for better cold flow characteristics and a more moderate operating temp viscosity.

Do remember that honda specs 5w30 for k20s with 8200 rpm redlines and 11:1 CRs....dino 5w30. A high quality 0w30, 5w30, or 5w40 would meet all your needs and then some.

Just my .02....no matter what, whether it's M1 15w50 or M1 0w20, this engine is going to last a long time if it was put together properly.


The car will see track time. I would run a 40 weight, but the 15w-50 is just more accessible for me. Plus, here in GA, cold starts are not an issue so I haven't seen any difference in wear when running a 15w-50 on a bone stock motor in the winter time.

One thing to keep in mind is that the K-series motors do not have forced oiling for the cam/roller interface. With stiff valve springs and high revs, the added thickness of the oil should be beneficial. Less likely to shear with the added valve spring load and less likely to sling off the rotating parts at high revs. If you've had a lot of experience with K-series motors, you've probably seen some instances of the cam lobes galling in both stock motors and highly stressed motors.

Anyhow, I'd consider trying the M1 0w-40 or M1 5w-40 for diesel trucks in this motor. However, I'd need to compare the additive package in those two oils to what M1 puts in the 15w-50. From what I've read, the 15w-50 has a different additive package from the other two making it better suited for my sort of application.

If I didn't have to drive all over town to get redline 5w-40, that would probably be my preferred oil.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: badtlc

So 20wt oils can handle 500+hp Maybachs, ferraris and whatever else AEHaas drives but it can't handle your piddly civic? I find that hard to believe.


How hard is to understand that one thing to to leisurely drive a couple of miles to the surgicenter or golf course and another to squeeze all the HP from a motor.

It's all about the oil temp.
+1 I bet you would be in jail before the oil gets hot.

 

[hooligan24]

what oil pressure and oil temps do you see in this monster?

My turbocharged 4cyl see's extended high oil temps and high rpms on a roadcourse with a nice 0w30 or 5w30 in the sump. I dont see the need for the higher viscosity. Even some of the top engine builders in the country for my motor still use Xw30's in theie motors. Stock is 230 to the wheels, and some of these builders regularly build 400-600hp motors

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk


Lot of assumptions in there. Got the data comparing your oil temps to Dr. H's? Examples of failed performance engines that were killed by a 20 wt oil? Any hard data on what the critical vis limit might be for this "built" engine (other than simple platitudes about 20 vs 30 wt oil)??? And so on. . .

You made a few assumptions yourself. You assumed that OP engine and his driving style was equal to other hondas running 5W20. Did you consider stock honda oil temp and compared to oil temp in cars doing track? And no, we are not talking 20 vs 30 oils.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Friendly jacek - There are several fine 0w20s or 5w20s that are capable of withstanding sustained 270-290 F oil temps at the track, or even elevated temps daily driving. Honda specs a 5w30 for these engines; a dino 5w30.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Chunky, fwiw, Real-Time Racing uses Redline SAE 40 in their cars. They run that for hours on the track, so there is some food for thought. My guess is that Redline 10w-30 or GC would be a good oil for you....even M1 0w-40.

 

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Chunky, fwiw, Real-Time Racing uses Redline SAE 40 in their cars. They run that for hours on the track, so there is some food for thought. My guess is that Redline 10w-30 or GC would be a good oil for you....even M1 0w-40.


Like I said, I would have no problem running a quality 40 weight in this motor.

Redline 10w-40 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 4.7 mPa•s
Redline 5w-40 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 4.6 mPa•s
Mobil 1 15w-50 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 4.50 mPa•s
Mobil 1 10w-40 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 4.06 mPa•s
Mobil 1 5w-40 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 3.9 mPa•s
Mobil 1 0w-40 HTHS Viscosity @ 150C: 3.7 mPa•s

The Redline 5w-40 or 10w-40 would be an ideal choice IMO. However, the Mobil1 15w-50 is much easier to get (5 min drive vs. 30+min drive) and has almost the same viscosity at temp as the Redline 40w offerings. I would consider trying the Mobil1 10w-40 if I could find it. It's hard to find for some reason. 0w-40 and the 5w-40 truck formula are everywhere though.

Using a higher viscosity, and thus film strength, oil helps ensure that lubrication stays hydrodynamic under stress. That's why I tend to favor heavier oils.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Friendly jacek - There are several fine 0w20s or 5w20s that are capable of withstanding sustained 270-290 F oil temps at the track, or even elevated temps daily driving. Honda specs a 5w30 for these engines; a dino 5w30.


The question is not if xW20 oil can withstand high oil temp but if they provide enough lubrication at those temps.

There is a Japanese paper (in Japanese language, but with english legends for figures) that clearly shows how wear increases with low HTHS, especially at 130 Celsius: http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/japanese/review/rev324pdf/324_035tohyama.pdf

On the other hand, if these engines are high revving, you might be right, as high revving engines require lower viscosity.

 

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
Friendly jacek - There are several fine 0w20s or 5w20s that are capable of withstanding sustained 270-290 F oil temps at the track, or even elevated temps daily driving. Honda specs a 5w30 for these engines; a dino 5w30.


The question is not if xW20 oil can withstand high oil temp but if they provide enough lubrication at those temps.

There is a Japanese paper (in Japanese language, but with english legends for figures) that clearly shows how wear increases with low HTHS, especially at 130 Celsius: http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/japanese/review/rev324pdf/324_035tohyama.pdf

On the other hand, if these engines are high revving, you might be right, as high revving engines require lower viscosity.



Interesting. Looks like they've identified 2.6 mPa*s @ 130C as the lower bound for HTHS to avoid accelerated piston ring wear.

It's interesting they say that b/c one of the big reasons why I went back to using the 15w-50 on this motor is b/c I had not so great results with 30 & 40 weight oil on my last high compression motor. Upon disassembly, there was accelerated ring & skirt wear.

I wonder how the HTHS of an oil changes over the duration of its service life. I suppose I'll have my next oil sample tested for HTHS. If 2.6 mPa*s @ 130C is the minimum that study found to avoid accelerated ring wear, I'll definitely want to be changing out whatever oil I have before the HTHS drops anywhere close to that level.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I`d stick with the Mobil 1 15W50.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
I wonder how the HTHS of an oil changes over the duration of its service life. I suppose I'll have my next oil sample tested for HTHS. If 2.6 mPa*s @ 130C is the minimum that study found to avoid accelerated ring wear, I'll definitely want to be changing out whatever oil I have before the HTHS drops anywhere close to that level.


When you mentioned this, I poked around the internet to see just who offers the service. So far, it appears to require a Tapered Bearing Simulator Viscometer. All of the references I see end with a ".org" after their URL's ..

If you find one that does offer the service, I hope that it's cheap enough for others to manage to use.

 

[chunky]

Well, I got a lead on one lab that does HTHS testing. I sent an email to find out if they actually do it and how much they charge. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: chunky
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: chunky

I'm not joking when I say it's a built motor. This is not a civic with a stock motor. It's a fully built 2.0L motor making 230+hp to the wheels, naturally aspirated. If I ran a 20wt oil in this motor and drove it the way I drive, it wouldn't have lasted past the first oil change. You won't find many UOAs of a fully built Honda motor running 20wt oil. Typically the owners know better.



So 20wt oils can handle 500+hp Maybachs, ferraris and whatever else AEHaas drives but it can't handle your piddly civic? I find that hard to believe.


AEHaas himself acknowledges that different operating environments require different grades of oil. For a car that's just rolling around the streets at the speed limit, you pick as low a viscosity oil as possible to get you the minimum pressure required by the engine manufacturer. For a fully built motor that sees track time, you pick an oil that can handle the added stress.

Ask AEHaas if he'd run his 20wt oil on the track.


Apparently you haven't followed NASCAR nor Joe Gibbs Racing.

 

[addyguy]

Another option, if you like this viscosity, is Amsoil Dominator 15W-50. Would be an interesting comparo.

Like Frank4N, I feel the OP has to go with what is in his 'comfort zone'. If other oils are going to make him sweat bullets every time he runs the car hard, their not worth running. M1 15W-50 is cheap and accessible, and make him not worry - end of story!

 

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: chunky
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: chunky

I'm not joking when I say it's a built motor. This is not a civic with a stock motor. It's a fully built 2.0L motor making 230+hp to the wheels, naturally aspirated. If I ran a 20wt oil in this motor and drove it the way I drive, it wouldn't have lasted past the first oil change. You won't find many UOAs of a fully built Honda motor running 20wt oil. Typically the owners know better.



So 20wt oils can handle 500+hp Maybachs, ferraris and whatever else AEHaas drives but it can't handle your piddly civic? I find that hard to believe.


AEHaas himself acknowledges that different operating environments require different grades of oil. For a car that's just rolling around the streets at the speed limit, you pick as low a viscosity oil as possible to get you the minimum pressure required by the engine manufacturer. For a fully built motor that sees track time, you pick an oil that can handle the added stress.

Ask AEHaas if he'd run his 20wt oil on the track.


Apparently you haven't followed NASCAR nor Joe Gibbs Racing.


Apparently, I'm also not on a multi-million dollar budget nor am I rebuilding/replacing the motor multiple times a year.

 

[chunky]

Wow, got a response from the lab, HTHS testing is $195/sample. :O

Good Afternoon:

Thank you for your email inquiry on the HTHS Viscosity testing. The
cost for testing used oils is $195.00 per sample.
I've also included general information on Savant Laboratory and a Test
Authorization Form for your use when sending samples to Savant for
testing.

We appreciate your interest in Savant and look forward to being of
service. Please contact me if you have any questions.


Sincerely,

Michael Habitz
Laboratory Manager

Savant, Inc.
4800 James Savage Rd.
Midland, MI 48642 USA
Phone: 989-496-2301
Fax: 989-496-3438
E-mail: [email protected]
Go to http://www.savantgroup.com for more information

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: chunky


Apparently, I'm also not on a multi-million dollar budget nor am I rebuilding/replacing the motor multiple times a year.


Ah, so now the stance changes.

Quote:
I'm not joking when I say it's a built motor. This is not a civic with a stock motor. It's a fully built 2.0L motor making 230+hp to the wheels, naturally aspirated. If I ran a 20wt oil in this motor and drove it the way I drive, it wouldn't have lasted past the first oil change. You won't find many UOAs of a fully built Honda motor running 20wt oil. Typically the owners know better.


Gibbs will use it in million dollar race cars for 500+miles in engines that produce 800+hp in the heat of Daytona and Taladega but it cannot work in a 230hp engine who rarely sees full output compared to daily driving conditions? Gibbs loses thousands of dollars if an engine fails and you think they will sacrifice quality and risk that?

I'll be blunt. I don't think you should run a Xw20 weight in your car. I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong. I am saying your, and others', gross generalizations that Xw20 oils are not performance oils and just for "fuel economy" is just baloney.

Your car would last as long as you need it to given the proper 20wt oil.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Chunky, considering your climate, 15w-40 HD with an HT/HS of 4.1cP might actually be the ticket. Redline and all is nice, but actually kind of pointless in your app. People typically overspend on oil, even for cars they are extremely fond of.

There is literally no valid reason to justify deviating from the 15w-40 HD. Even the additive levels are ideal. Plenty of room for shear/dillution...

Kind of OT, but I run some 2-Cycle oil in my fuel at 500:1. Maybe worth a try.

 

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: chunky


Apparently, I'm also not on a multi-million dollar budget nor am I rebuilding/replacing the motor multiple times a year.


Ah, so now the stance changes.

Quote:
I'm not joking when I say it's a built motor. This is not a civic with a stock motor. It's a fully built 2.0L motor making 230+hp to the wheels, naturally aspirated. If I ran a 20wt oil in this motor and drove it the way I drive, it wouldn't have lasted past the first oil change. You won't find many UOAs of a fully built Honda motor running 20wt oil. Typically the owners know better.


Gibbs will use it in million dollar race cars for 500+miles in engines that produce 800+hp in the heat of Daytona and Taladega but it cannot work in a 230hp engine who rarely sees full output compared to daily driving conditions? Gibbs loses thousands of dollars if an engine fails and you think they will sacrifice quality and risk that?

I'll be blunt. I don't think you should run a Xw20 weight in your car. I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong. I am saying your, and others', gross generalizations that Xw20 oils are not performance oils and just for "fuel economy" is just baloney.

Your car would last as long as you need it to given the proper 20wt oil.


Haha, when did my stance ever change? I specified from the start that this motor is daily driven, albeit aggressively driven, and will see occasional track time. It IS a fully built motor that sees red line multiple times per day. The motor has bigger piston to wall clearances, bearing clearances, operating temps, etc., so comparisons to stock motors are not really valid.

However, comparisons to motors run exclusively in high budget professional racing circuits are equally invalid. Gibbs racing is not using off the shelf formulations of 20 weight oil. They're using race spec versions of the 20 weight, and usually with proprietary additive packages that they co-develop with their oil supplier. Not to mention, the entire oiling systems on those motors is engineered to ensure high enough pressure at critical interfaces with the lighter weight oil to resist hydrodynamic breakdown.

So, that brings to light the fact that comparisons between off the shelf 20 weight oils and the race spec 20 weight oils are invalid or, in your words, baloney. The off the shelf oils ARE for fuel economy. That's why they're stamped energy conserving. That is what 90% of all commonly available 20 weight oils are, energy conserving. The 20 weight oils for race use are the exception, not the rule. Mobil 1 does offer a 0w-20 and 0w-30 race oil now. Here's what Mobil 1 has to say about their 15w-50 vs. their 0w-20/30 race oils:

Quote:

I've been using Mobil 1 15W-50 in my race car. How are these new oils better/different?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is a higher viscosity oil that delivers a thick oil film for protection of high performance engines. While Mobil 1 15W-50 can be used and is recommended for both street and track use, the new Mobil 1 Racing oils are only recommended for use in race engines at the track. Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 and 0W-20 are lower viscosity oils designed to increase power output versus higher viscosity oils. Most importantly, Mobil 1 Racing oils are formulated with anti-wear (Zinc/Phosphorus) chemistries at twice the level of automotive street oils to protect race engines including high loaded flat tappet designs used in the NASCAR series.


Anyhow, I've already acknowledged that a big reason why I use the 15w-50 is b/c it's easy to find, not too expensive, has a nice zinc & phosphorous level, and has a good HTHS spec. It's a compromise that reflects my preference for the benefits of a higher HTHS over the benefits of a lower oil weight.

 

[chunky]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Chunky, considering your climate, 15w-40 HD with an HT/HS of 4.1cP might actually be the ticket. Redline and all is nice, but actually kind of pointless in your app. People typically overspend on oil, even for cars they are extremely fond of.

There is literally no valid reason to justify deviating from the 15w-40 HD. Even the additive levels are ideal. Plenty of room for shear/dillution...

Kind of OT, but I run some 2-Cycle oil in my fuel at 500:1. Maybe worth a try.


Which 10w-40 HD are you referring to? Mobil1 only has one x-40 oil that has a starting HTHS of >4, that's the 10w-40

Without any good reason other than it makes me feel good, I like to run an oil with a starting HTHS of >4. I would like to know what the HTHS of the Mobil 1 15w-50 drops to after 5k+ of use. I might spring for the HTHS test once, just to have some idea. I was pretty surprised at how much the cSt viscosity dropped (Mobil1 15w-50 starts in the 18 range).

Anyhow, I'll probably do some more searching to see if I can get my hands on a less common brand of x-40 oil that has a HTHS of >4. I know that Redline, Amsoil, and Schaeffer all have x-40 oils with an HTHS that's >4. The problem has always been finding a convenient place to buy it.