Mobil 1 5W-30/4546 miles/2007 Mazdaspeed3

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: mva
I just wanted to counter all of the M1 back patting and show that 25 ppm of iron in 4500 miles is not that impressive on this engine.


Agreed. I have not achieved 25ppm Fe on my "worst" UOA, all of which were taken at 4k+ mi.
 
Originally Posted By: mva

Beerlube, it will be interesting to see your next UOA. It looks to me like you are just coming out of the break in period. I just wanted to counter all of the M1 back patting and show that 25 ppm of iron in 4500 miles is not that impressive on this engine.


Correct, In fact, if you look at the total UOA record for 2.3L Turbo DI Mazda engines, you'll see that Beerlube's Fe numbers are consistently higher than any other, especially when normalized to Fe wear per 1K miles.
 
Last edited:
Hi,
MCompact - It is quite common to have Threads highjacked here and perhaps "interests" lessor than yours then take over

Your UOA - the original topic of this Thread - is a good result. You can confidently carry on using this lubricant - I would for what it is worth!

I don't comment on UOAs very often especially regarding wear metal levels because at best it is an inaccurate science in attempting to determine engine wear rates. However IMO yours are very acceptable indeed!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

I don't comment on UOAs very often especially regarding wear metal levels because at best it is an inaccurate science in attempting to determine engine wear rates. However IMO yours are very acceptable indeed!


Doug, your are just plain wrong about this. Peer reviewed studies about oil analysis have come to different conclusions.

When multiple oil analysis on the same engine type, using the same lab, show consistent differences between metal concentrations that are outside the margin of error, and one is consistently higher, there is a physical mechanism causing this. In Mcompact's case, his record is quite clear, as are the UOA records of other Mazda DI engine owners. His Fe numbers are consistently higher than the average, whether viewed from an absolute concentration perspective, or a normalized (per 1K mile) perspective.

I am neither hijacking this thread nor speculating. The facts are as I've written. None of the other wear elements show this trend, except Fe. A good question to ask is why?
 
Last edited:
Hi,
RI-RS4 - You said this;
"Peer reviewed studies about oil analysis have come to different conclusions."

Well I'll just trash my 40 years odd UOA experience and my UOA database(with multiple same family engines and either of three Oil Co Labs) along with the engine tear down inspections for major engine manufacturers and Oil Companies then - sorry to have commented on what I see as a good UOA result - I'm really sorry I did!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

I don't comment on UOAs very often especially regarding wear metal levels because at best it is an inaccurate science in attempting to determine engine wear rates. However IMO yours are very acceptable indeed!


Doug, your are just plain wrong about this. Peer reviewed studies about oil analysis have come to different conclusions.

When multiple oil analysis on the same engine type, using the same lab, show consistent differences between metal concentrations that are outside the margin of error, and one is consistently higher, there is a physical mechanism causing this. In Mcompact's case, his record is quite clear, as are the UOA records of other Mazda DI engine owners. His Fe numbers are consistently higher than the average, whether viewed from an absolute concentration perspective, or a normalized (per 1K mile) perspective.

I am neither hijacking this thread nor speculating. The facts are as I've written. None of the other wear elements show this trend, except Fe. A good question to ask is why?


You are missing it. Completely.

Doug's condemnation limit for Fe in his diesel engines was 150ppm. You'd be messing your drawers if you saw that number in a UOA I would bet.

That engine now has 2.5 MILLION Km on it. At 1.2 million Km, it was torn down and inspected and everything was still within NEW specs.

So how significant was that 150ppm of Fe other than being an indication of contamination?

This is why engine manufactures use TEAR DOWN TESTING to evaluate engine WEAR. UOA's are NOT designed for this purpose.
 
Doug's results of 150 ppm were for very long OCI (something like 75,000 mile oil change interval) on commercial diesel trucks running long haul trips in Australia.

How does that compare to a turbo mazda gasoline passenger car showing highish iron while running M1 5W30?
 
Hi,
mva - You said this;
"How does that compare to a turbo mazda gasoline passenger car showing highish iron while running M1 5W30?"

Well it begs the question as to what you believe are "highish iron" levels?

If you are seeing 10ppm, 50ppm iron at similar OCIs is this "highish levels" is the variance a factor?, if so what is the "allowed" variance before "condemning" the lubricant or engine's performance against another? Measuring engine wear by wear metal variances is at best prone to many wrong conslusions.

There are many many factors (engine cleanliness, lubricant formulation and or contamination, metallurgies used, engine family structures etc) involved and I now await what you think are "highish levels" of iron and what they are compared to?

And to what end consequence? - if we have engine No1 at 30ppm Fe and engine No2 at 15ppm Fe at regular 5k OCIs, will engine No2 last twice as long or fail last for instance?

It is a common and established practice to set a lubricant condemnation level of 100-150ppm for Iron! This is especially so with one-pass UOAs

Engine Manufacturers, component suppliers and Oil Companies measure wear rates at nanometres - one millionth of a millimetre - per hour now in real time. Of course by real time oil analysis too where possible and by teardown inspection and measure up

For instance many gearboxes and diffs have oil condemnation levels of 1500ppm for Iron - at this level they still last up to millions of miles! They are more likely to fail due to water contamination and etc!!

The UOAs we see on BITOG are certainly interesting - as long as we do not draw too many wrong conclusions from them
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,


It is a common and established practice to set a lubricant condemnation level of 100-150ppm for Iron! This is especially so with one-pass UOAs



The UOAs we see on BITOG are certainly interesting - as long as we do not draw too many wrong conclusions from them



Hi Doug,

Does the same 100-150ppm of iron apply to a passenger car as well as a diesel truck? I'm still trying to understand UOA's, and the only real benefits I see is to detect coolant leaks, dirt ingestion and fuel dilution. Then if you pay for a TBN test, if extending an OCI is an option.

Thanks!
Frank D
 
In my short tenure here, I'm beginning to realize that most of the comments in the UOA sections are fairly meaningless, including my own.

Like Demarpaint said and I think Doug Hillary is alluding too, other than trending your metals over a period of time, the actual PPM count is fairly useless. Most of us SHOULD only really only care about viscosity, fuel, insouls, TBN/TAN, antifreeze, etc.

UOAs are interesting, but as I'm beginning to realize, are only the tip of the iceberg when considering how they performed over the course of an OCI.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
MCompact - It is quite common to have Threads highjacked here and perhaps "interests" lessor than yours then take over

Your UOA - the original topic of this Thread - is a good result. You can confidently carry on using this lubricant - I would for what it is worth!

I don't comment on UOAs very often especially regarding wear metal levels because at best it is an inaccurate science in attempting to determine engine wear rates. However IMO yours are very acceptable indeed!


Doug- Thanks again for providing useful information to this forum. Like you, I fail to see how the allegedly "high" Fe numbers in my UOA will have any affect on my engine's longevity.
 
Very good UOA, Mcompact!
All bearing metals very low. Iron in double digits, no worries there. Other direct injection Mazda engines show slightly elevated iron on this board. Very low fuel dilution for direct injection. If you want to bring iron down, some have had success with 10W30, M1 or PP.

I had a chance to purchase a Mazdaspeed 3, but chose the RX8 instead – my mistake
crazy2.gif
 
Hi,
Frank - You said;
"Does the same 100-150ppm of iron apply to a passenger car as well as a diesel truck? I'm still trying to understand UOA's, and the only real benefits I see is to detect coolant leaks, dirt ingestion and fuel dilution. Then if you pay for a TBN test, if extending an OCI is an option."

Firstly you already have a good understanding of UOAs and their use as an engine/lubricant management tool. Of course viscosity (up or down) is important too and with experience and application some other "issues" may be able to be detected as well depending on how "intense" the UOA is

In more "important" applications for instance (highly utilised cars,loaders, OR-Dump trucks, excavators, machinery etc etc) the likes of a PQ Index reading provides another dimension in ferrous wear metal shedding

And yes - the 100-200ppm range is "acceptable" unless other companion wear metals (etc) have risen in consort. Most engine manufacturer's have a limit of 150ppm in single pass UOAs and the larger Oil Companies have their Lab's "Alert" limit (variably) set at around 100ppm

Repeated short OCIs with iron levels around 100ppm would raise the "Alert" flag of course. This is why trending with an engine family (and individual engines) is so important - you can then begine to "read" the overall results!

Depending on the engine's metallurgical "mix" it is worth remembering that there may be around 15 engine components that will likely trace Iron. By comparison, only about 4 will show copper - and so it goes on

Wear metals are accumulative (they build up) during an OCI and it is common for some "old" lubricant to remain after an OC. Very few people will know how much is left in some engines especially where oil coolers and the likes are part of the engine's lubrication system

I hope this is helpful
 
Last edited:
Thanks Doug for taking the time to explain. It is helping me understand reading UOA's and their value! I still have a lot more to learn, but I'm on the right path.

Many Thanks!
Frank D
 
Doug, you managed to discount my posting without responding to it in any meaningful way. I've noticed this to be your general debate style.

In fact, there is currently enough UOA data out in the public domain, on this and other boards, on the Mazdaspeed Turbo DI engine, to begin forming conclusions. You are correct that you cannot use UOAs across multiple engines of multiple types to gleen any useful data. However, it is quite easy with some bit of data processing to generate meaningful analysis results on multiple UOA data on engines of the same type. With the correct filtering and comparisons the information pops right out.

Doug, I don't expect you to trash your years of experience on the fleet you have analyzed. But that does not discount what many engineering and tribological studies have found, that UOAs can be and are used as a diagnostic tool for wear and failure prediction, and for oil performance comparison. Please hear me clearly. A UOA is a blunt instrument, since, as you rightly point out, there are multiple potential sources in an engine for any wear particulate. Nonetheless it is a highly accurate and repeatable instrument. As such, it can be used quite effectively for more than you choose to believe.

Because of the accuracy and repeatability of Rotrode and ICP Spectroscopy used in oil analysis, changes in the analysis record can be attributed to variables, and those variables can often be determined, assuming that you look at multiple particulate concentrations, across multiple UOA samples, of engines of the same type. Manufacturing variation in modern engine designs is exceedingly small. I can take advantage of this in analyzing sample data from multiple sources. I and others do.

Quote:
Wear metals are accumulative (they build up) during an OCI and it is common for some "old" lubricant to remain after an OC. Very few people will know how much is left in some engines especially where oil coolers and the likes are part of the engine's lubrication system


You point out something important. There is a widely held belief that the highest engine wear occurs right at an oil change. This is a misconception, because wear metal concentrations have been contaminated by left over oil from the change. Once this residual concentration is subtracted out of the analysis results, the early wear rate after oil change is close to the average wear rate. Most people do not take to time to determine this, but actually it's quite easy , using oil analysis, to determine what the residual oil volume is, and perform the proper corrections to the analysis record.
 
Hi,
RI_RS4 - I did not "discount" your posting - but starting off by saying I or anyone else is wrong does raise a question or two!
And criticising my "debate style" delves into the personalities of it all - a dangerous field to touch IMO!

You also said this;
"Doug, I don't expect you to trash your years of experience on the fleet you have analyzed."

Perhaps you may have entirely missed the point! It is not "the Fleet" that comprises my database - it is the records of many many vehicles and engines over many many years. Mostly as result of field testing prototype engines and lubricants for a number of major Organisations! 99% of the vehicle/engines (air cooled/coolant cooled) various engine types/fuels and families, and user application) I never had any "ownership" of - but managed either as an Senior Technical employee or as a Private Consultant and over some decades

Many people on here no doubt have similar or greater experiences than I and they need to be listened to and their points considered as well. I share my experience freely on BITOG and as always it is simply a case of believe it or not I suppose. Whether people act on what I print or even believe it is simply over to them

I don't plan to debate your comments in your Post above although one productively could!

This Thread is about an individual vehicle's UOA and as others have pointed out - its very good report, their opinions I concur with!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OMCWankel
Very good UOA, Mcompact!
All bearing metals very low. Iron in double digits, no worries there. Other direct injection Mazda engines show slightly elevated iron on this board. Very low fuel dilution for direct injection. If you want to bring iron down, some have had success with 10W30, M1 or PP.

I had a chance to purchase a Mazdaspeed 3, but chose the RX8 instead – my mistake
crazy2.gif



Don't feel bad, I would have liked an RX8 but I needed a track toy that could also serve as a family car as well as my daily driver. My 14 year old son is almost 5'11" so the RX8 wasn't a player...
 
I disagree with your opinion, and I've stated the reason. You are quite wrong about oil analysis being an "inaccurate science" at best.
 
Last edited:
I finally got around to converting some of my UOAs to jpg files, so here is the complete Blackstone report:

MS3UOA5.JPG


Note that the 07/02/08 sample included a three day driving school at Putnam Road Course, where the car spent @1.5 hours per day lapping the 1.766 mile track. Engine speed remained between 3000-6000 rpm throughout each 30 minute session. Ambient temps ranged from 70F-90F.
 
Formula One racing teams use oil analysis to monitor wear between different viscosity and formulations. I'm sure this also includes ferrography and other tests. Some of these racing teams can spend thousands of dollars on oil analysis testing.

Mobil 1 allows for more Fe wear from what most of us have seen. Whether it's significant or not at times I don't know. Apparently Ashland and now BP have found a flaw in Mobil 1 5w30. The Seq IVA test is not only based on tear downs, but oil analysis to monitor Fe and Cu.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top