M1 15-50/v-twin20-50 and stp oil treatment

[satterfi]

Trying to rationalize that M1 15w50 is the same thing as MX4T based on internet oil analysis is wishful thinking.

It's not. So get over it.

I like M1 15w50 and still use it, but MX4T is not 15w50 and a $20 oil analysis isn't going to tell you the difference.

 

[Rob]

I love the graph on moly content. There are guys that I race with that use the Motul and Torco. I tell those guys you can run an oil that is equal if not better for less money I get the same old Moly is bad for wet clutches. Here is a what Torco says about there T4R.

Part Number
SAE 10W40 T671040
SAE 20W50 T672050

Available in:
Quart Bottles (.946L) / 55 Gallon Drums (208L)

Features & Benefits:


MPZ anti-friction and anti-wear protection
Synthetic blend for greater viscosity retention
Superior cam and gear protection
Offers smooth positive clutch engagement

Product Description:
A blend of specially selected synthetic base oils and hydrocracked petroleum base stocks to maintain viscosity in higher than average engine temperatures. It contains high shear stable polymers featuring excellent ring sealing properties and transmission protection for high performance and racing applications.

Typical Uses:
Recommended for high performance air cooled or liquid cooled 4 stroke engines. Commonly used in superbike, sportbike, cruiser, and touring applications. Also recommended for motorcycles using alternative fuels (ie. methanol) or motorcycles with turbos, superchargers or nitrous oxide.

Meets Or Exceeds:
API Service: SG/SH, ACEA A3-96, CCMC G4/G5.

Note:
Follow manufacturers’ viscosity recommendations and fill level requirements

I have been to Maxums and Motuls web site and they all say the same. Great for 4 stroke sport bike and super bikes. So I quess the theory of oil containing Moly and high HP bikes just dont cut it

I had to add this

quote:

---

So, to the guys who think Mobil 1 automotive oil is fine for sump-sharing bikes ... why did Mobil 1 come out with a bike-specific formula?

Do you think Mobil is merely trying to rip you guys off?

--- Bror Jace

---

The numbers speak

[ August 15, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Rob ]

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by satterfi:
Trying to rationalize that M1 15w50 is the same thing as MX4T based on internet oil analysis is wishful thinking.

I like M1 15w50 and still use it, but MX4T is not 15w50 and a $20 oil analysis isn't going to tell you the difference.

---

I use "red cap" too. Nobody's said it's the SAME thing. We're saying that it's so similar that the difference isn't worth paying twice the price. The fact that an oil analysis can't find any significant difference, supports that idea.

Based on the price difference, Mx4T would have to last nearly twice as long as "red cap" in order to be cost effective. Even for extreme racing applications, red cap already so far exceeds the lubrication requirements of most engines that any reasonable person should question whether the marginal improvement of Mx4T makes any difference at all.

I'll be posting my latest "red cap" UOA as soon as I get it (dropped it in the mail yesterday).

 

[Arved]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aircooled:
He states he likes to use M1 15-50 instead of the much pricier V-Twin oil. He states they are just about the same with the additive packages differing for wet clutch app. (JASO MA vs MB)

He also states he likes to add some STP oil treatment to the 15-50 ...

---

Where does he say this? The only mention he makes on difference between M1 15-50 and the V-twin oil is:

"One, but the consensus appears to be that the new SuperSyn has additional friction modifiers and may no longer be a good choice for motorcycles. However, I have heard from several VFR owners still using it with favorable results. Therefore, YMMV. Mobil naturally recommends their motorcycle Mobil One."

That hardly supports your claims.

I also could find no mention of STP. None. Nadda.

What he does say is:

"A number of motorcyclists have reported to me good results so far with his use of the new Synthetic Rotella-T. I put it in my own VFR at my last oil change. "

He also says:

"My favorite oils and the ones I most mostly recommend for motorcycle use, are the "heavy-duty" oils. They are commonly misunderstood, and often referred to as 'diesel oils.'"

"6. Shell Rotella-T 15w40 (my personal favorite)"

So, we can conclude that Mike used to use Shell Rotella-T 15W40 conventional oil, and recently made the switch to try out Shell Rotella-T synthetic 5W-40 oil. Unless you have a private e-mail from him that says he's using M1, I can only conclude that you didn't read the report you sited.

I think you're confusing this web site with the study posted on the BMWOA web site. That study is old, comparing the old Tri-synthetic formula M1 15W50 oil with the 20W50 Motorcycle oil. M1 has gone to a new formulation it calls SuperSyn(thetic), and you really can't compare the new oil to the old oil. That article was 5-7 years old, which is a long time in the oil world. The conclusions are not valid anymore to current off-the-shelf oils.

I smell an alterior motive...

Respectfully,
- Arved

[ August 16, 2003, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Arved ]

 

[aircooled]

Wow! easy....

I first read his article in the in the August '03 issue of roadbike magazine..

Page 72, interview with Mike Guillory (among others)

Rides: '85 Honda V65 Magna with 50,000 miles. Honda VFR750 with 36,000 miles.

oil used: Mobil 1 15w50 automotive oil, adding 7 ounces of STP oil treatment..

In the article he states he adds the STP because it has "High levels of ZDDP, and early Honda V-fours had camshaft wear problems".

Sorry I confused you, the link was in the article.

 

[doyall]

quote:

---

Trying to rationalize that M1 15w50 is the same thing as MX4T based on internet oil analysis is wishful thinking.

It's not. So get over it.

I like M1 15w50 and still use it, but MX4T is not 15w50 and a $20 oil analysis isn't going to tell you the difference.

---

RoadKingRiders post is not an "internet oil analysis." It appears to come from ExxonMobil's Material Safety Data Sheet. If the current MSDS's on EM's web site are up to date, some of the numbers have changed a bit but not enough to cause a different conclusion to be reached. I'm with you RKR, after I use the V-Twin oil I found on clearance at WalMart, I'm going with the Red Cap in my Harley.

 

[RoadKingRider]

Just as a follow up to my post - The guy that posted his opinion from which I got the info is CEO, AMS-MotoMachine & Supply Inc Ft Worth TX. Over 39 yrs experience remanufacturing air cooled engines (aero, Harley, VW, Porsche, etc) and have seen the internal wear and tear on hundreds of thousands of them. Currently owns 1 Roadking FLHR, 1 RKC FLHRCI, 1 Ultra Classic E-Glide FLHTCUI and a V92 Victory and runs M1 15W50 in all four bikes.

 

[doyall]

Just been taking a closer look at the scope of information available on this. Check out the additive packages.

VOA on HD 360 20w50 posted 1-13-03 by mikeyoilnut:
Boron 182
Magnesium 563
Calcium 1088
Phosphorous 958
Zinc 1231
Moly 2
KV @ 100C 21.42

VOA on HD SYN3 20w50 posted 8-1-03 by DWC28:
Boron 360
Magnesium 730
Calcium 1400
Phosphorus 1040
Zinc 1150
Moly 6
KV @ 100C 20.5

VOA on M1 15w50 posted 4-22-03 by J:
Boron 176
Magnesium 18
Calcium 2339
Phosophorus 1072
Zinc 1175
Moly 69
SUS @ 210 89.1

Well, it appears as though the Zinc and Phosophorus numbers in the M1 15w50 are right in line with what HD would "recommend." Boron in M1 is practically the same as in the HD 360 so who can complain it's not enough. A lot less Magnesium in the M1 but as a detergent the Calcium should suffice for that purpose. And surely the Moly in the M1 is a plus. Only wish there was a VOA on the V-Twin.

Now to the less than positive ... viscosity.

HD 360 is a high 50 weight per the VOA.
HD SYN3 is a high 50 weight per the VOA.
V-Twin is a high 50 weight (KV @ 100C 20.8) and even a high 40 weight cold (KV @ 40C 172.2) per the MSDS on Mobil's web site.
15w50 is a low 50 weight (KV @ 100C 17.4) and a low 40 weight cold (KV @ 40C 125.0) per the MSDS on Mobil's web site and the VOA.

Maybe that's why someone would put STP in the 15w50. If the 15w50 will not shear quickly (or at all) there is no reason not to use it. And even if it does shear, it shoudn't (can't?) shear much. If only we had a UOA in a Harley. It'll be a while for me to get there. RKR, are you using it?

Any other perspectives?

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by doyall:
Any other perspectives?

---

I like the fact that M1 "red cap" is on the thin side of a 50 weight, because:

1. Many bikes ideally recommend a 10w40

2. The lighter weight oil is going to flow a little more volume.

2a. Higher flow means easier cold starts with less wear.

2b. Higher flow means slightly lower operating temperatures, especially for air/oil cooled bikes.

Of course all of the above is contingent on whether it stays in grade. As a group IV syn that shouldn't be a problem, but only a UOA tells you for sure.

 

[userfriendly]

MRC01;
No talkin' 'bout cams 'n port velocity allowed in the grease section.
We got lock'd out.

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by userfriendly:
MRC01;
No talkin' 'bout cams 'n port velocity allowed in the grease section.
We got lock'd out.

---

Gotta keep it on topic I guess.
On the subject of variable intake geometry, check out Porsche's Varioram and Ford's IMRC. Also most motorcycles have variable intake geometry too, since they use constant velocity carbuerators. Interesting topic!

 

[userfriendly]

Varioram?? That sounds like an Italian opera singer.
My original question was how to increase the port velocity with a fixed port size.
Variable in and out lengths will change the sonic tuning rpm.
Variable volume the gas velocity.
Can the gas velocity in an intake port be increased by raising the compression ratio, delaying the intake valve opening point, putting a shorter con-rod in the engine, and opening a larger intake valve later but faster?

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by userfriendly:
My original question was how to increase the port velocity with a fixed port size.
Variable in and out lengths will change the sonic tuning rpm.
Variable volume the gas velocity.
Can the gas velocity in an intake port be increased by raising the compression ratio, delaying the intake valve opening point, putting a shorter con-rod in the engine, and opening a larger intake valve later but faster?

---

Variable intake geometry will change both the tuning RPM and also the intake velocity. The long narrow runners will provide better torque and throttle response at low RPM.

Also advancing the timing can do the same thing if you can avoid detonation.

I don't know whether you could do the same thing with compression ratio and cam grinds. I think less lift will provide a similar effect but not sure on that one.

 

[trey]

i have a honda 929rr sportbike and i always use mobil 1 15w-50. good stuff! no problems, although i did recently buy some of that mx4t stuff just to try a thinner oil.

 

[RoadKingRider]

I just switched from Redline 20W50 to M1 15W50 in my 2002 HD Road King. I believe I've read every internet article/forum article about M1 15W50 looking for a reason not to use it - I haven't found one. Mentally though, I am having acceptance issues switching from a 20W50 to a 15W50 because viscosity span is a bit larger. But whereas I change my oil every 3000 miles, it may not be an issue. I like the $$$$ sense M1 15W50 gives over the cost of Redline at 3000 changes. I just can't bring myself to do extended oil changes. Can a 15W50 flow better than a 20W50 while maintaining it's 50 wt?

M1 15W50 tested out very well in the Oct 03 Sport Rider article on Motor oil. Two tests it did very well on were the Evaporative Heat Stability Test and Four-Ball Wear Test.

The tests conducted were:

Spectrographic analysis charts: What and how much of various additives are in each oil, and what that means to you.

Heat stability/Aging test: Subjecting the oils to extreme heat to see how well they withstand the abuse your motor would dish out.

Dyno test: Will using motorcycle-specific synthetic racing oils give you more power?

Four-Ball Wear Test: We pit motorcycle synthetic oils against a regular petroleum car oil to see if there is a difference in protection.

Viscosity shear test: Can off-the-shelf petroleum car oils perform as well as a synthetic motorcycle oils in the harsh environment of a motorcycle transmission?

 

[RoadKingRider]

I wanted to say too - the primary reason I switched from Redline to M1 is for convenience of oil resources. M1 is readily available at auto and department stores like Walmart, K-Mart etc. If Redline was just as available I would continue using it and I'd use Amsoil if it was too. I'd rather use a 20W50 viscosity - I'm just stuck on that viscosity span and possible shearing with 15W50 over 20W50. It's like switching from a full bodied beer to a lite beer , it's just not the same. Can anyone possibly put my mind to ease with that issue?

 

[doyall]

RKR, maybe you could find a lab that would do a just a viscosity test and have one done at 1,500 or so miles to see how it is holding up. Hopefully that would not be as cost prohibitive as a full-blown UOA. After reading some other posts the M1 "red cap" might be questionable as to shear. If I didn't have my next 2 oil changes planned for my '99 TC-88 (Auto-Rx treatment), I would use it with confidence, but would have a UOA done to determine if I wanted to continue using it. Any synthetic should hold up better than the HD 360 oil, especially in a 3K OCI.

 

[userfriendly]

Chevron Delo 400 SAE 50
40C......223cSt
100C......19.3
Flash....498F
SA......(.96
TBN......8.7

Esso/Exxon 15W40 VM
40C.......114
100C......15.0
Flash......225C
SA.........1.4
TBN.......10.5
calcium....3760 ppm
moly.......51
phos.......1255
zink.......1369

[ September 03, 2003, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: userfriendly ]

 

[doyall]

userfriendly, I will ride at temps in the 40's so the straight 50 may not be the best alternative and ride hard with the temps in the 90's (and sometimes 100's) so the 40 weight may not be best. That's the reason for the consternation over the "red cap" ... thin 50 weight. Wouldn't be surprised if RKR rode in the same. Seems like he rides a lot so he is bound to operate in less than favorable conditions as well. Appreciate all the ideas nonetheless.

 

[KX 455]

Does anyone have recent numbers on mobil delvac 1300 super? I have been using this my last 2 outings MX.I too switched over from the red cap to the mx4t after 5 yrs,but the price for the mx4t is outrageous.They are all great performers I was susprised how well the delvac 1300 performed in my tranny.I will bet the delvac has better properties than most m/c specific oils that sell in the rat dealerships.The money I save get's me more rides at the track.The shift's are consistent and smooth with the delvac,I am going to take it for a 3rd ride session before I drop the oil,I will tell you this it is still clean..

Keith,
00,03KX250 .
"LET'S JUST RIDE".
www.locastros.com

[ September 03, 2003, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: KX 455 ]