Home Defense Caliber, 9mm vs .45 POLL

[ArrestMeRedZ]

None for me personally, but I know of at least two cases with people I worked with. One awoke with an intruder in his toddler daughter's bedroom {Maimi, FL). The intruder had what appeared (in the low light) to be a weapon in his hand. One shot with a 30-06 deer rifle neutralized the intruder permanently.

Another co-worker in Apple Valley, CA had two youths come to his front door at dusk and ring. My co-worker had an early sortie the next morning, was going to bed, and declined to answer the door. When the youths drove part of the block up the street, and started walking back to his house, he knew something was up, and called 911. The phone went dead in his hands when the phone line was cut.
He got his .45 Long Colt and opened the front door just as they rounded the corner on their way to break in said door. He yelled HALT, they turned to run, and he inadvertantly discharged the gun as he was bringing it up.
They got away, but police caught one when he came back to get his [staked out] car in the early AM. The police knew who the other was since he went to the emergency room with a hole in his hand. They spoke with him on the phone, but couldn't catch him. In a follow up, the officer suggested my co-worker work on his aim.

 

[greenaccord02]

My uncle had a guy in his house one night. He heard him in the other room, so he grabbed his shotgun racked it hard and yelled some expletives. The guy left so fast he was out the same window he came in before my uncle got to the room.

Another time, in college, a friend of mine who lived in a rural area heard glass break outside his house. He grabbed his SKS and quietly went outside to investigate. He saw two guys in his car, trying to steal his stereo. He fired several shots in a safe direction and the would be thieves, who turned out to be young teenagers, practically killed themselves trying to get out of the car and run away.

So, sometimes home defense guns don't kill people. They just scare the [censored] out of them.

 

[JasonC]

All this talk of calibers and wound sizes and such is really a moot point when someone gets shot. My father was shot in the back with a .38 Special back in the 60's and he told me that the last thing on his mind was "what caliber was that bullet that hit me?"

Point is that when most people get shot, they freak out and the threat is usually over.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: BBDartCA
How many people here have needed to use their guns at home to defend themselves?


Me: A 20yr old tore the sliding glass door from it's frame to gain entry into my Houston apartment @ 2:30 AM. This entry woke my bride, but not me. She lay quiet in the bed as he went thru the house looking for stuff. He ended up in our bedroom. He went thru my wife's purse using a butane lighter to see and then came to get my wallet next to me on the nightstand. The noise of the lighter woke me and I jumped out of bed and grabbed him by the hair. As we tussled my wife lept from the bed...went to the closet and got her 20ga shotgun. I heard her cock the hammer. so I hit the dirt!

Held him at gunpoint and called the cops. They came 38 minutes latter. The perp was not tried..he was deported. Did not fire a shot but I was glad I had guns!

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: ammolab
Me: A 20yr old tore the sliding glass door from it's frame to gain entry into my Houston apartment @ 2:30 AM. This entry woke my bride, but not me. She lay quiet in the bed as he went thru the house looking for stuff. He ended up in our bedroom. He went thru my wife's purse using a butane lighter to see and then came to get my wallet next to me on the nightstand. The noise of the lighter woke me and I jumped out of bed and grabbed him by the hair. As we tussled my wife lept from the bed...went to the closet and got her 20ga shotgun. I heard her cock the hammer. so I hit the dirt!

Held him at gunpoint and called the cops. They came 38 minutes latter. The perp was not tried..he was deported. Did not fire a shot but I was glad I had guns!


Peculiar. Why didn't she wake you up when she first heard him?

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
All this talk of calibers and wound sizes and such is really a moot point when someone gets shot. My father was shot in the back with a .38 Special back in the 60's and he told me that the last thing on his mind was "what caliber was that bullet that hit me?"

Point is that when most people get shot, they freak out and the threat is usually over.


Don't go trying to inject common sense here. I have no doubt that if you shot an intruder with a puny, little 9mm he would simply point out that it incapable of inducing hydrostatic shock and continue to rifle through your belonings. Anything less than a .30-06 and you might as well make the guy a cup of coffee instead.

The most important thing is going to be hitting the target under stress. If you're proficient with a .45, good for you. Most people will get more practice with a 9mm over a .45 due to cost and a 9mm over a .40 due to comfort.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: ammolab
Me: A 20yr old tore the sliding glass door from it's frame to gain entry into my Houston apartment @ 2:30 AM. This entry woke my bride, but not me. She lay quiet in the bed as he went thru the house looking for stuff. He ended up in our bedroom. He went thru my wife's purse using a butane lighter to see and then came to get my wallet next to me on the nightstand. The noise of the lighter woke me and I jumped out of bed and grabbed him by the hair. As we tussled my wife lept from the bed...went to the closet and got her 20ga shotgun. I heard her cock the hammer. so I hit the dirt!

Held him at gunpoint and called the cops. They came 38 minutes latter. The perp was not tried..he was deported. Did not fire a shot but I was glad I had guns!


Peculiar. Why didn't she wake you up when she first heard him?


She thought he was armed...and for sure at the time we were NOT! She did not think he would come into the bedroom. Funny thing is that she lept from the bed and carried all the covers into her closet. When I asked why, she said "if he had seen me naked I would have had to kill him!".

 

[BBDartCA]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
All this talk of calibers and wound sizes and such is really a moot point when someone gets shot. My father was shot in the back with a .38 Special back in the 60's and he told me that the last thing on his mind was "what caliber was that bullet that hit me?"

Point is that when most people get shot, they freak out and the threat is usually over.


Reminds me of the old saying, "fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish"

 

[RDak]

Originally Posted By: FirstNissan
Hey guys, im looking at getting a glock for the house, just wanted to see what caliber BITOG'ers are using for their pistols.
My opinions after shooting both: 9mm easier to control with less recoil so more on target shots, .45 cal is a bit more snappy, but definetaly inspires a ton of confidence


FWIW, I would go for the .45acp if I were you.

After practicing with it, you will not find it to be too heavy on recoil IMHO.

But there's nothing wrong with a 9mm handgun either. Just not as powerful as the 45acp, but still a very good medium powered cartridge IMHO.

In the end though, I'd go for the .45acp.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: JasonC
All this talk of calibers and wound sizes and such is really a moot point when someone gets shot. My father was shot in the back with a .38 Special back in the 60's and he told me that the last thing on his mind was "what caliber was that bullet that hit me?"

Point is that when most people get shot, they freak out and the threat is usually over.


Depends a lot on the person...I recommend the book "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan. Lots of BP agents returned accurate fire after being hit themselves. The desiree to win, the discipline to focus on the situation and the training to hit your target in adverse conditions are all factors in winning a gunfight.

It's not over after the 1st hit...it's over when the threat ceases...

 

[Spazdog]

Originally Posted By: Astro14

Depends a lot on the person...I recommend the book "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan. Lots of BP agents returned accurate fire after being hit themselves. The desiree to win, the discipline to focus on the situation and the training to hit your target in adverse conditions are all factors in winning a gunfight.

It's not over after the 1st hit...it's over when the threat ceases...


Criminal types are less likely to be able to identify a proper Weaver or Isoscles stance much less employ them.
I don't know how they hit anything intentionally with that Menace 2 Society "gangsta" sideways pistol grip, weapon held high above the sight line. Not that they could effectively use the sights held sideways like that anyway.
It's not like they are firing an M3 Grease Gun or C963 Mauser. They probably aren't using the recoil to spray horizontally. I think Hollywood created that stance to more clearly show the actor's face. Criminal types adopted it because - well, I don't know why.

But that's not to say that all criminal types cannot properly shoot. Or that they won't get lucky and actually hit what they intend to.

Training. Kinesthetic memory. Accuracy. The hope that you never need it and the confidence that yours is better than his.

 

[bsmithwins]

Originally Posted By: RDak


But there's nothing wrong with a 9mm handgun either. Just not as powerful as the 45acp, but still a very good medium powered cartridge IMHO.



How are we defining power?

Wikipedia lists the .45 ACP 230gr at 900ft/sec as having 414ft/lbs of energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

The same source lists the 115gr 9mmP load as running at 420ft/lbs. +P gets you 466ft/lbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9719mm_Parabellum

All pistol calibers are weak. If you really need to stop a bad guy's action now use a shotgun or rifle.

By way of comparison, 5.56 easily gets 1300ft/lbs of energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56

BSW

 

[Steve S]

what does FT lbs supposed to do?

 

[SuperDave456]

How is that Ft lbs distributed across/inside a person in order to "stop" the threat?

If too much is distributed too early then there isn't enough penetration. If there is too much penetration then a portion of kinetic energy is wasted upon exit.

Where does one draw the line?

I don't know who made the comment but I believe it is appropriate here, "No plan lasts past the point of first contact with the enemy."

Science is good. Experience is better.

 

[bsmithwins]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
what does FT lbs supposed to do?


That's why I asked 'How are we defining power?'

Foot/pounds? A formula that weighs the diameter of the projectile, the weight, and the velocity? Revealed wisdom that .40 or better class projectiles are always more effective on humans than .35 cal bullets?

Terminal ballistics is the black magic side of ballistics. There are no clean mathematical formulas that adequately predict how bullets behave in flesh, or why some people can keep fighting after taking mortal hits while other go into shock after taking a .25 ACP to the skin of the ribs.

I'm happy with what I carry, 124gr Gold Dot +P in 9mmP. I'd rather have my rifle with me if I knew the [censored] was going down, but it's kinda hard to conceal a rifle under a flannel shirt.

BSW

 

[Rix]

12 guage.
The pistol is purely backup.

 

[bubbatime]

Since the OP lives in NJ, that in itself is very important. Had he lived in Arizona or Florida or some other castle doctrine state, I may suggest something else. But here is my suggestion.

NJ has a magazine capacity limit of 15 rounds. So that rules out the Glock 17 9mm that holds 17 rounds in its magazine. The Glock 21 .45 has a 13 round magazine.

NJ is very anti gun. They are also anti hollow-point ammunition. While it is legal to own hollow-point ammo in the home and to use them for home defense, they are generally frowned upon by prosecutors as "cop killer" bullets.

My recommendation for home defense in NJ is a .45 handgun using FMJ ball ammunition. The Glock 21, Glock 21SF, and Smith&Wesson M&P .45 are all solid handguns. My seconday recommendation would be a Glock 22 or Smith&Wesson .40 caliber with 15 round magazine, again using FMJ ammunition.

Also, handguns have terrible stopping power against a determined attacker. A handgun should be used to get to your long gun. And if you live in NJ, your long gun should have a wood stock and look/function much like a popular hunting rifle/shotgun. A good long gun for home defense in NJ is a Remington 870 / Mossberg 500 / or a levergun in 30-30 or .357 mag.

 

[bsmithwins]

FMJ is the worst ammo you can use in a pistol of self defense. It tends to make 'icepick' type wounds as it zips thru human size targets, which also are more likely to involve the neighbors. FMJ is also much more prone to ricochet.

For NJ I would suggest Federal's EFMJ, which is a expanding FMJ. My other choice would be Corbon's Powerball, where the hollow point is filled with a plastic ball.

Check your local laws before buying as I don't live in NJ and don't know how the local DA's treat those bullets.

BSW

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: JasonC
All this talk of calibers and wound sizes and such is really a moot point when someone gets shot. My father was shot in the back with a .38 Special back in the 60's and he told me that the last thing on his mind was "what caliber was that bullet that hit me?"

Point is that when most people get shot, they freak out and the threat is usually over.


Don't go trying to inject common sense here. I have no doubt that if you shot an intruder with a puny, little 9mm he would simply point out that it incapable of inducing hydrostatic shock and continue to rifle through your belonings. Anything less than a .30-06 and you might as well make the guy a cup of coffee instead.

The most important thing is going to be hitting the target under stress. If you're proficient with a .45, good for you. Most people will get more practice with a 9mm over a .45 due to cost and a 9mm over a .40 due to comfort.


+1! All this chest pounding about how the 45 ACP is so superior to 9mm is laughable, especially if it gives someone a false sense of security and power.

I guarantee if you shoot someone in the chest with a good +p JHP 9mm, they'll probably be in as bad a shape as if shot with a comparable 45 ACP.

 

[Steve S]

I wouldn't want to get shot by a 45. But then I wouldn't want to get shot by a 9 either!!!