High Zinc Oils?

[Draky]

I'm new here and love the site and all the knowledge shared, so thank you first of all for all the help you have already given me.

So I found this while poking around the net (click on the 3rd slide takes you here). High zinc high performance motor oil. Anyone have any thoughts on if this would be good or what the benefits are to high zinc content in your oil? Sounds like a gimmick to me because if it was good then it would have been on the shelves already.

 

[WMSmotorhead]

Zinc is credited wtih giving extra protection at super high RPMs.. like racing.

 

[Rob_Roy]

High amounts of zinc are beneficial in engines with flat tappet camshafts and aggressive patterns/spring pressures.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Draky
Sounds like a gimmick to me because if it was good then it would have been on the shelves already.


Well, it's not so much a gimmick. Joe Gibbs oils are extremely, extremely overpriced. Their cheapest conventional works out to $7.99 a quart, and it's ZDDP is elevated to what I'd consider an ideal level, but there are far cheaper alternatives. Other Joe Gibbs products go north of $25 a quart.

That might be reasonable if they were the only game in town for racing oils, high ZDDP oils, or for ZDDP additives. They're not the only game in town, nor are they the best game in town. Right off the top of my head, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Royal Purple offer much cheaper alternatives. I'm sure Amsoil does as well, and then there's Red Line. Then there's Quaker State Defy, HDEOs, and ZDDP additives.

I normally don't like additives, but compare Joe Gibbs cheapest at $7.99 a quart for conventional versus PYB at $12 for five quarts, plus around $12 or so for Comp Cams zinc additive. You do the math. Three quarts of Joe Gibbs costs the same as 5 quarts of PYB and enough ZDDP additive for two oil changes - the full dose is usually used for break in. Or, Quaker State Defy, which can be had for around $20 for five quarts. At least that's a synthetic blend.

If I needed much more ZDDP, I'd stick to VR1 or M1 racing RP racing or something like that or an HDEO with older specifications.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Draky
I'm new here and love the site and all the knowledge shared, so thank you first of all for all the help you have already given me.

So I found this while poking around the net (click on the 3rd slide takes you here). High zinc high performance motor oil. Anyone have any thoughts on if this would be good or what the benefits are to high zinc content in your oil? Sounds like a gimmick to me because if it was good then it would have been on the shelves already.


If it's a gimmick, it's one that has worked for 60 years.

Just to calibrate your sensibility, zddp has been the most important oil additive over the last 60 years. It provides anti-wear, anti-oxidation, and anti-corrosive properties to motor oil. Everybody uses it. Its use has been curtailed in the last 15 years by government regulations that require 150k miles emission systems durability. In the last few years, zddp has started to be replaced by new anti-wear additives that are molybdenum or titanium based. If you have an old car with a flat-tappet cam, you should be considering high-zddp oils. Otherwise, modern oils are OK.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Draky
I'm new here and love the site and all the knowledge shared, so thank you first of all for all the help you have already given me.

So I found this while poking around the net (click on the 3rd slide takes you here). High zinc high performance motor oil. Anyone have any thoughts on if this would be good or what the benefits are to high zinc content in your oil? Sounds like a gimmick to me because if it was good then it would have been on the shelves already.


If it's a gimmick, it's one that has worked for 60 years.

Just to calibrate your sensibility, zddp has been the most important oil additive over the last 60 years. It provides anti-wear, anti-oxidation, and anti-corrosive properties to motor oil. Everybody uses it. Its use has been curtailed in the last 15 years by government regulations that require 150k miles emission systems durability. In the last few years, zddp has started to be replaced by new anti-wear additives that are molybdenum or titanium based. If you have an old car with a flat-tappet cam, you should be considering high-zddp oils. Otherwise, modern oils are OK.


Well was this paper written by one of your collages?

http://papers.sae.org/2004-01-2986/

It seems that ZDDP levels in SN/GF-5 oils are at a ideal level in some peoples opinions. I have even seen some pretty dated studies that have shown that 0.05% ZDDP content is the lower limit and at the rate is where camshaft wear starts to accelerate. This whole subject will be debated until long after we are gone I believe.

 

[mechtech2]

High ZDDP is good for break in, esp of high pressure flat tappet cams.
After break in, even moderately hot cams do well on modern oils.
Remember that even in the old days of super high zinc, flat tappet cams and lifters wore rather quickly.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Remember that even in the old days of super high zinc, flat tappet cams and lifters wore rather quickly.


Yep. All the ZDDP in the world didn't save the Chevy SB cams.

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Draky
Sounds like a gimmick to me because if it was good then it would have been on the shelves already.


Well, it's not so much a gimmick. Joe Gibbs oils are extremely, extremely overpriced. Their cheapest conventional works out to $7.99 a quart, and it's ZDDP is elevated to what I'd consider an ideal level, but there are far cheaper alternatives. Other Joe Gibbs products go north of $25 a quart.

That might be reasonable if they were the only game in town for racing oils, high ZDDP oils, or for ZDDP additives. They're not the only game in town, nor are they the best game in town. Right off the top of my head, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Royal Purple offer much cheaper alternatives. I'm sure Amsoil does as well, and then there's Red Line. Then there's Quaker State Defy, HDEOs, and ZDDP additives.

I normally don't like additives, but compare Joe Gibbs cheapest at $7.99 a quart for conventional versus PYB at $12 for five quarts, plus around $12 or so for Comp Cams zinc additive. You do the math. Three quarts of Joe Gibbs costs the same as 5 quarts of PYB and enough ZDDP additive for two oil changes - the full dose is usually used for break in. Or, Quaker State Defy, which can be had for around $20 for five quarts. At least that's a synthetic blend.

If I needed much more ZDDP, I'd stick to VR1 or M1 racing RP racing or something like that or an HDEO with older specifications.



20-25 bucks for a quart is the normal price here for a good synthetic oil such as motul or castrol tws.
JG HD 15w50 = 131 USD for 12 quarts sounds like a bargain to me.
I wouldn't complain too much. You guys have everything so cheap - so lucky.

 

[Jakegday]

Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
High amounts of zinc are beneficial in engines with flat tappet camshafts and aggressive patterns/spring pressures.


yep, and harmful to catalytic converters. Which is why new SN rated oils contain less of it

 

[jake88]

The "high zinc" thing is good science that got glommed on to by marketers and they did everything they could to make it the only thing about oil that mattered.

In reality, ZDDP is only one of many types of anti-wear additives and anti-oxidants found in modern engine oils. Zinc can be replaced by ashless dithiophophates or other metallic salts of dithiophosphate. Catalyst friendly oils have limits on PHOSPHOROUS which is responsible for the action of ZDDP. Dithiocarbamate chemistry does work in place of the phosphorous chemistry, but is not as cheap or effective.

A higher level of zinc generally corresponds to higher levels of anti-wear performance, as does higher levels of phosphorous. However, there is a point of diminishing or no returns and that is dependent on many factors (ZDDP structure, oil temperatures, contact pressure, etc.)

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
I wouldn't complain too much. You guys have everything so cheap - so lucky.


That may be true. However, imagine if they imported Joe Gibbs into your country. They'd probably want $75 a litre for it.