High-end point & shoot (G9) vs. Digital SLR (D80)

[Jim 5]

We have a micro point and shoot sony DSC T-10 which is ideal for snapshots, and gets a lot of them because it is smaller than a wallet so it actually arrives at events where you would want to take a snapshot. Our bulky point and shoot (a Canon a80 is dead).

Since the Canon is dead, I need to supplement the mini camera with a better camera that can take excellent photographs and can have a larger form factor. When I say excellent, I am not talking about professional quality, I'm talking excellent for a consumer/hobbyist quality pictures. I was considering a Canon G9 or something similar. It is between that and an SLR like a Nikon D80 or similar. The G9 seems like it is in the top 3 for bulky high-end point and shoots. The next step up seems to be a change in format altogether to an SLR.

I'm guessing that a high end bigger point and shoot will have more potential than I would ever use (other than being able to change lenses), which I used to do fairly often on my 35mm Canon T70 SLR(there's a blast from the past).

Anyhow, I know I am comparing apples to oranges in comparing a G9 (or equivalent) to a digital SLR, but I'd still appreciate some thoughts in deciding between these formats. The biggest downside to the SLR for me is again the size. On the other hand, if it is going to be light years ahead of the G9 equivalent, then I'll consider it.

If you have a suggestion on one side or the other - point and shoot vs. slr, please feel free to suggest a particular model. I am really hoping to benefit from peoples' knowledge. I am willing to pay up to the market price for a Nikon d80 kit(including 50mm lens).

Any constructive comments would be very much appreciated!

 

[XS650]

If the G9 interests you, also consider the A650IS. Same lens, sensor array and processor in a slightly smaller package for less money.

 

[CivicFan]

Someone posted pictures here taken by a late model Olympus SLR camera that had internal image stabilization. I think that camera is worth a look as well.

 

[Jim 5]

Originally Posted By: XS650
If the G9 interests you, also consider the A650IS. Same lens, sensor array and processor in a slightly smaller package for less money.


Great tip. Thanks for that. Those differences are all advantages in my mind. If I go with the G9 equivalent, then I would likely go for the A650IS.

 

[XS650]

Also look up CHDK for easy reversible mods to the firmware on many Canon point and shoots. You can add a lot of features only available on the higher level cameras. I haven't tried CHDK on my A650IS yet, but probably will eventually.

 

[moribundman]

Originally Posted By: Jim 5
I need to supplement the mini camera with a better camera that can take excellent photographs and can have a larger form factor. When I say excellent, I am not talking about professional quality, I'm talking excellent for a consumer/hobbyist quality pictures.


Well, if your goal is 5x7 prints, most sub-$300 cameras will work for you in terms of image quality.

Things to consider:

The larger the CCD or CMOS, the better the quality of the image the chip can deliver. A tiny sensor packed with 12 MP makes no sense. A larger chip with lower pixel density will usually result in better image quality than a smaller chip with higher pixels density. That's is one reason why a 6PM digital SLR delivers a better image than a 12 MP P&S.

A very long zoom lens is pretty much pointless in a compact camera. I wouldn't choose a P&S camera with more than a 5x optical zoom. I'd also choose to go with a camera that offers a wide 28mm equivalent focal length at the short end.

The lens should have more than a two F-stops range. Some don't even have that and use a neutral density filter instead. Ack.

I would pic a camera that offers aperture priority or a shiftable program automatic over one that has a dozen silly scene modes. Scene modes are for the clueless who don't understand the basics.

I would pick a camera that has an optical viewfinder, but maybe you can do without one. The viewfinder in compact cameras are usually pretty bad.

I prefer cameras that can use AA size rechargeables over those that use proprietary lithium ion etc batteries. It may not be a factor to you.

Make sure the flash is far from the center of the lens as possible.

Important are of course the ergonomics and the layout. If you can't comfortably hold a camera or operate the buttons easily, you won't be happy with it. That means you really should play around with the camera at a local store, even if you buy it later online.


I'd check out the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX500. It offers a good amount of control an adjustment, allowing creativity beyond mere composition.

If you "need" a long zoom, and if you don't mind a full-auto beast, then the Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ5 may be a good choice. You can find that one for under $300.

 

[XS650]

Quote:
If you "need" a long zoom, and if you don't mind a full-auto beast, then the Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ5 may be a good choice. You can find that one for under $300.


My wife has that cameras predecessor, the DMC-TZ1 which is pretty much the same optically. The 10x optical zoom works like a champ. Panasonic does nice image stabilization.

I almost got a TZ5, the only reason I got my Canon A650IS instead of a TZ5 is that the TZx series doesn't have an optical viewfinder.

 

[moribundman]

Yeah, for me a camera without optical viewfinder is out of the question. Some may not be bothered by its absence.

 

[Jim 5]

Excellent food for thought. Thanks very much for the practical advice. Among many good points made, our little sony has no optical viewfinder which makes things very difficult in the daytime. Whatever I buy will definitely have one, as for the rest of the comments, I'm going to wade through them and do some spec list comparing on different cameras.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful input and any additional thoughts would be very much appreciated as well!

 

[JHZR2]

really depends on what youre doing with it. If you want real flexibility, go with the dslr. I'd look for a used D70s if you want cheaper, or a used D200 if you want better.

I have a D300 and love it, but its what I carry. For if we are traveling light, we have a canon elph that is perfect... I can also swap lenses for pracicality. However, a D300 will blow your price point out of the water, likely, given what youre looking at.

The other question is, would you have lenses? A kit lens is usually [censored], some are decent, but they tend to have little flexibility - one of the reasons you bought the DSLR... so you need to have a lens set. Nikon is good for back compatibility, others may be hit or miss, I dont know enough.

For the best, Id look for a used DSLR of the varieties I mentioned. I have a D80 in the lab on my micoscope, and think that it doesnt offer enough benefit compared to my D70s (which also has amazing battery life that the newer ones, including my D300, dont have). If not using it all the time for all sorts of stuff, get one of those (IFF you have the lenses already) used and wait for a sed D700 to come along - full frame digital in a consumer body is the thing to look for (Canon has had it a while, but I personally have nikon system lenses, so thats why Im posting with a nikon flair). If you dont have the lenses, you need to think long and hard about the investment really required to get a superior capability compared to the better point and shoot cameras.

I agree with mori's points on the topic.

Some like him, others dont, but kenrockwell.com ha some decent viewpoints for folks attempting to be reasonable...

JMH

 

[Jim 5]

One last point, one factor that is almost at the top of the list for me is shutter lag with flash on, and of lesser but great importance, quick recharge of the flash.

With a young one in the house, it's crucial to be able to snap that priceless snapshot almost instantaneously when the moment strikes. The Canon a80 was almost glacial in this respect, and my research led me the to Sony DSC T10 we are now using.

This was one of the reasons I was leaning towards an SLR, because in trying them out in different electronics shops, I found most to be very quick in taking that shot (flash on).

I have never tried the most current crop of higher end point and shoots, but I am willing to pay a significant amount of extra money for performance in this area.....and for predicted reliability (long service life). I thought I was getting a long service life in the a80 since the price was significantly higher than most.

 

[moribundman]

Well, if good flash performance is important, you pretty much have to go with a DSLR and an accessory strobe.

I can't tell you which digital P&S has decent flash performance and fast recycling. I think you'd have to try some cameras out and see which ones seem to fire quickly. The shutter lag, with or without strobe, is still horrendous in case of many digital P&S cameras.

Maybe a small DSLR like an Olympus Evolt would be right for you. It's not exactly pocketable, but it's small and the body costs only about $450. Of course, a decent lens and a strobe aren't inexpensive. Also keep in mind that whatever you buy, digital P&S or DSLR, it's already being replaced by the next model. Gone are the days when you could buy a camera and it would remain state of the art for a decade.

 

[JHZR2]

I have a nikon speedlight SB800. It takes an additionl battery for faster recharge. It can fire off quick undermost any cnditions, if the batteries are fresh. Even rechargeables last in there for a while, self-discharge doesnt seem to be a huge issue.

The SB-800 is the higher end nikon flash before going to something with a belt-mounted battery and really professional... it works well, but its another $300 or so.

Have you tried the wares at a variety of real camera stores to see what they could do?

JMH

 

[Jim 5]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I have a nikon speedlight SB800. It takes an additionl battery for faster recharge. It can fire off quick undermost any cnditions, if the batteries are fresh. Even rechargeables last in there for a while, self-discharge doesnt seem to be a huge issue.

The SB-800 is the higher end nikon flash before going to something with a belt-mounted battery and really professional... it works well, but its another $300 or so.

Have you tried the wares at a variety of real camera stores to see what they could do?

JMH


That's what I've been doing. Recycle time is not as important as snapping the picture right when I press the shutter release. My a80 could take as long as 3 seconds when the flash was on. My current cameras seemed to snap the shot more quickly outside when they didn't seem to have to calculate how much flash to apply. I'm probably inaccurate about what was going on, but the observation is still correct.

I think I am going to wander around best buy seeing how the P&S cameras do when asked to take a quick shot with the flash on. The SLR's are really good at this (by my standards) even with the little flip up flash. With a speedlight it sounds like it will be even better.

In thinking through this process with everyone's assistance, it is becoming clear to me that this is a key consideration when buying.

 

[PF52]

I have the Nikon D80 and love it; it came after about 25 years of using various Nikon film SLRs (most recently a N90S) so its layout and controls were familiar to me. All of my Nikon lenses work with the D80, although my older manual-focus lenses won't meter or, obviously, autofocus with it.

I also spent 3-4 years using a couple P&S cameras, and I must say the DSLR completely blows them out of the water. Picture quality is much better, and there's no annoying time delay when turning the camera on, or when pressing the shutter. Also, the DSLR doesn't shut itself automatically (or worse, revert to some all-auto preset setting) if I don't touch it every ten minutes or so.

I love being able to use ISO 100 (same as the film I'm most familiar with!) with the D80; I think some other Nikon DSLRs have ISO 200 as their slowest ISO. However, that is probably not even a consideration for most users.

I also like the ability to use fast lenses on the DSLR, which is something that's impossible (or nearly impossible) on the P&S. When the sun's about to set, I like being able to set my lens at f1.4 or f2 (or a zoom at f2.8) and still have a decent shutter speed. The P&S would start bumping shutter speeds to unacceptable levels (or increase the ISO) when the light starts to fade.

By the way, the Nikon kit lenses generally get pretty good ratings. They all have Nikon's ED glass, which back in film days was reserved only for the very top-of-the-line lenses. I don't actually OWN one of the kit lenses; I need the faster f2.8 zooms which are more expensize than I'd want to admit, but worth it to me. You'd be fine with, say, the 18-55 or 18-135 kit lenses, supplemented with either a 50mm f1.8 or a 35mm f2 for a fast lens for use in low-light situations (or indoors without flash).

 

[Jim 5]

Thanks css9450 for some good pluses to DSLRs and good advice as to lens choice!

 

[surfstar]

http://dealnews.com/categories/Electronics/Cameras/Digital-Cameras/168.html?exp=N

If price is a strong point ^^ compare daily, until you find what you're looking for.

I just stepped into the dSLR world with an Olympus e510 - great package at $540 with two lenses (covering 28-300 in 35mm equivalent). I also strongly recommend a 28mm wide end on whatever camera you buy - a few P&S offer them now. TZ4/5 by Panasonic goes from 28-280; just about all you'd need. Another great "older" model, IMO, is the Fuji S6000/S9000 - they have larger sensors than most P&S cameras (better high ISO) and 28-300 zoom.

 

[JHZR2]

28 isnt very wide, especially on a non FX/full frame sensor.

An 18 is better.

I prefer the 18-70 for usability/versatility in a kit lens, but IIRC, the 18-55 was recently "upgraded" to VR. THis is a very good thing, as the glass in the 18-55 is quite good, and if youre not planning to spend $1700/lens for good 2.8 glass, VR is a must for being able to make the shot no matter what.

Even if your flash isnt up to charge, your battery is going low, etc., VR can help make some shots because it lets you shoot at a slower shutter speed.

For expensive fast glass or an FX-sensor camera (super low noise and "graininess" at high ISO, it doesnt necessarily matter much anyway, for many situations.

The D80 and below will have noise issues at higher isos, say 400 or better. Ditto on the D100 and D200. The D300 is the best so far, but if you want to cleanly shoot at ISO 800, 1600, etc. with minimal noise (guarantee you get the shot when setting to auto ISO and having a good clean result), then go for a D700 or a canon 5D (I prefer the nikon system). pricier, but if your priority is getting the right shot, everytime, then the added flexibility will help.

A D70 or D80, let alone, say a D40 (which wont operate all of the older nikon glass) is very much more a consumer camera... nothing wrong with that, and I LOVE my D70s, but some of the newer mid-range cameras do a lot better for some more money and not much a larger size.

JMH

JMH