I don't think it damages anything, I just think it's fiscally irresponsible and purely political. If it was good for the environment or actually viable without subsidies, then I'd be all for it.
Germany Getting Rid of E10
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ok here in wichita ,kansas , quik trip i ask the manager about E10. he said " our fuel can contain UP TO 10%". so i might get 10% this week and 0% next week. AND they dont have to post it if it has 10%
While it's true that vehicles have been made to work with E10 for many years, older models don't always have the ability to make the slight fuel trim adjustment and might not run quite as well on it. Ethanol still absorbs water, can phase separate and has a short shelf life. It drops your fuel milage and with gas over $3.50/gal it adds up over tankfulls.
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
OK, can anyone explain what the reason, beyond the politics of subsidizing the corn growers, of having ethanol blended with gasoline? I always thought that it was there to reduce the pollution.
I guess to save oil. For every ten gallons of E10 you save one gallon gasoline?
OK, can anyone explain what the reason, beyond the politics of subsidizing the corn growers, of having ethanol blended with gasoline? I always thought that it was there to reduce the pollution.
I guess to save oil. For every ten gallons of E10 you save one gallon gasoline?
Nope. The tractors used to plant, cultivate, and harvest the corn don't run on ethanol. The fertilizer and pesticides used on the corn aren't made from ethanol. The electricity needed to distill the ethanol doesn't come from ethanol. The fuel used in the trucks and trains required to transport it don't run on ethanol(it can't be piped).
At the best an equivalent amount of fossil fuel is used for every gallon of corn based ethanol produced.
Ed
At the best an equivalent amount of fossil fuel is used for every gallon of corn based ethanol produced.
Ed
And the E10 drops milage by probably up to about about 4-5%. And you're paying as much or more for E10, plus more for food products on top of the subsidies. Sounds like total economic and enviromental failure for everyone but the corn growers and ethanol producers.
Addressing CivicFan's question on pollution: Ethanol(as an oygenate) was originally added to reduce CO emissions. This was when cars were mostly carbureted, and it did help. In a modern, fuel injected car the increased fuel burned more than offsets the effect of the ethanol. It also increases the aldehydes and ketones in the exhaust, so now results in a more toxic exhaust than the same car running on pure gasoline.
As mechanicx said, it's a total environmental and economic failure.
Ed
As mechanicx said, it's a total environmental and economic failure.
Ed
The question i have is..
How many farmers have stopped growing other crops in favor of growing corn so they can in the deals.
IMHO Food is one of the things you don't want to start burning for fuel.
How many farmers have stopped growing other crops in favor of growing corn so they can in the deals.
IMHO Food is one of the things you don't want to start burning for fuel.
As it turns out, Germany is not getting rid of E10 at all. Due to confused and angry consumers, it was decided to delay the introduction of E10 fuel for a short while.
German gas stations are now increasingly forcing consumers to buy E10. How do they do it? Well, many gas stations are now simply "out of" any fuel other than E10. This is often causing long lines at gas stations that sell fuel other than E10.
Volle Fahrt voraus!
German gas stations are now increasingly forcing consumers to buy E10. How do they do it? Well, many gas stations are now simply "out of" any fuel other than E10. This is often causing long lines at gas stations that sell fuel other than E10.
Volle Fahrt voraus!
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And the E10 drops milage by probably up to about about 4-5%. And you're paying as much or more for E10, plus more for food products on top of the subsidies. Sounds like total economic and enviromental failure for everyone but the corn growers and ethanol producers.
You forgot the government, that reduction in economy also increases fuel consumption thus increasing tax revenue.
And the E10 drops milage by probably up to about about 4-5%. And you're paying as much or more for E10, plus more for food products on top of the subsidies. Sounds like total economic and enviromental failure for everyone but the corn growers and ethanol producers.
You forgot the government, that reduction in economy also increases fuel consumption thus increasing tax revenue.
Originally Posted By: 3311
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And the E10 drops milage by probably up to about about 4-5%. And you're paying as much or more for E10, plus more for food products on top of the subsidies. Sounds like total economic and enviromental failure for everyone but the corn growers and ethanol producers.
You forgot the government, that reduction in economy also increases fuel consumption thus increasing tax revenue.
Exactly.
Also, E10 maybe be subsidized by increasing the price of non-E10 fuel. If older cars, and first generation VW FSI engines, develop problems due to E10, then it's of course good for business, which in turn increases tax revenue. The taxman always laughs all the way to the bank.
Conservation also leads to an increase in taxes. After all, if people use less, the poor government has to increase their "fair share." There is no escape.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
And the E10 drops milage by probably up to about about 4-5%. And you're paying as much or more for E10, plus more for food products on top of the subsidies. Sounds like total economic and enviromental failure for everyone but the corn growers and ethanol producers.
You forgot the government, that reduction in economy also increases fuel consumption thus increasing tax revenue.
Exactly.
Also, E10 maybe be subsidized by increasing the price of non-E10 fuel. If older cars, and first generation VW FSI engines, develop problems due to E10, then it's of course good for business, which in turn increases tax revenue. The taxman always laughs all the way to the bank.
Conservation also leads to an increase in taxes. After all, if people use less, the poor government has to increase their "fair share." There is no escape.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
At the best an equivalent amount of fossil fuel is used for every gallon of corn based ethanol produced.
And at best only a small part of that fossil fuel comes from a source that I can't put in my tank directly. Coal and nuclear plants are inefficiently adding a little liquid electricity to my fuel.
The black rubber (neoprene) gaskets on some my OPE don't hold up well with Ethanol in the gasoline. My Briggs gaskets get brittle and fall apart every 2 years. The Tecumseh Snow King still runs the original gasket 8 years later.
Non ethanol gasoline left open to the air does not draw in water. Gasoline with Ethanol left open to the air will draw in water. Before Ethanol fuel could be left in an open top carburetor all summer. It would be a bit scummy but it works and the carburetor isn't damaged. Now Ethanol fuel will draw in water all summer, corrode and clog the carburetor, and the OPE won't work without cleaning and service when the seasons change. Can't fill the tank to deny the fuel the oxygen needed to gum up since the oxygen is in the fuel. I've drained the snow blower fuel this year to see if it will start without major service next winter.
Without BITOG people are slow to learn and still use the tried and true techniques that don't work any more. They continue to fill their tanks to reduce the oxygen available hoping to slow the formation of gum. They leave gasoline in all summer and wonder why the carb is in bad shape when winter comes. Occasional use OPE is taking a beating from Ethanol.
At the best an equivalent amount of fossil fuel is used for every gallon of corn based ethanol produced.
And at best only a small part of that fossil fuel comes from a source that I can't put in my tank directly. Coal and nuclear plants are inefficiently adding a little liquid electricity to my fuel.
The black rubber (neoprene) gaskets on some my OPE don't hold up well with Ethanol in the gasoline. My Briggs gaskets get brittle and fall apart every 2 years. The Tecumseh Snow King still runs the original gasket 8 years later.
Non ethanol gasoline left open to the air does not draw in water. Gasoline with Ethanol left open to the air will draw in water. Before Ethanol fuel could be left in an open top carburetor all summer. It would be a bit scummy but it works and the carburetor isn't damaged. Now Ethanol fuel will draw in water all summer, corrode and clog the carburetor, and the OPE won't work without cleaning and service when the seasons change. Can't fill the tank to deny the fuel the oxygen needed to gum up since the oxygen is in the fuel. I've drained the snow blower fuel this year to see if it will start without major service next winter.
Without BITOG people are slow to learn and still use the tried and true techniques that don't work any more. They continue to fill their tanks to reduce the oxygen available hoping to slow the formation of gum. They leave gasoline in all summer and wonder why the carb is in bad shape when winter comes. Occasional use OPE is taking a beating from Ethanol.
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