Ford Focus Electric - Wow! - Anybody Else Know?

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: stranger706
I have a Focus ST right now.


Strangely enough, it would have cost me about the same $$$$ to get a Focus 1.0L Ecoboost turbo 3cylinder model as it would the Focus Electric (all the rebates now). Its good to buy electrics when gas prices are so low.

That 1.0L turbo combo is ez on gas, and a blast to drive. The engine is a masterpiece.

I mention the 1.0L here because I'm wondering why they don't use it (maybe sans turbo) in the Ford C-Max Hybrid, my other car, which runs a big 2.0L 4-cylinder instead currently. Seems a 1.0L 3-cylinder is perfect for a hybrid, since the electric motors already provide low-end torque; maybe thats next for Ford's hybrids.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I like the 1.0L. I'd like to get one with a 6 speed. If for no other reason than to avoid the MTX75 and its awkward gear ratios.

Originally Posted By: stranger706
Its nice to hear first hand about the Focus Electric.

I have a Focus ST right now. Its a blast to drive but I do worry about the long term reliability. I've been very interested in the Electric car market lately. I love the mechanical simplicity of it all. I imagine my next car will probably be electric. Just a few more years for the range and infrastructure to mature. I would need at least a 100 mile range in all weather conditions.

OTOH I can't believe gas is still $2 gallon.


The engine has been used for quite a while (2008 2009 in Volvos) for a while without serious issue.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: stranger706
. Just a few more years for the range and infrastructure to mature. I would need at least a 100 mile range in all weather conditions..
2016 Nissan Leaf has a 107 mile range option now (upgraded battery option, normal range battery is about 80 mile.

autonews.com is reporting Nissan will make a 300 mile range Leaf (new styling, less frumpy-hipster) in 2019.

 

[HTSS_TR]

By 2018-2019 many automakers will have EV with 200+ miles range. But the price before rebate(s) will be above $30-35k.

 

[Jetronic]

I wonder if we'll run out of electric or gas first.... might be a factor in choosing you next vehicles.

A 300 mile range EV is nice, but takes alot of juice to charge. Is the grid ready for a fair percentage of EV users?

 

[stranger706]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
I like the 1.0L. I'd like to get one with a 6 speed. If for no other reason than to avoid the MTX75 and its awkward gear ratios.


Yes Ford is weird with the Focus transmissions.

The regular 2.0 Focus gets a short geared 5 spd, the 1.0 and 2.0 ecoboost both get a relatively tall 6 spd. A member here has one and I realized its the same gearing as my ST. The 6 spd is wonderful. I wonder why they don't just use it across the model range.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I wonder if we'll run out of electric or gas first.... might be a factor in choosing you next vehicles.


It's not the supply, but the affordability of it. We'll never run out of gasoline. It'll just, in theory, and eventually, become harder and harder to access that it becomes financially unfeasible.

I don't see that happening for quite a long time.

 

[stranger706]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
A 300 mile range EV is nice, but takes alot of juice to charge. Is the grid ready for a fair percentage of EV users?


Yeah I wonder about this too. How much extra capacity does the grid have? Is it different around the country?

I bet they would get rid of "off peak" rates once everyone starts charging their EV overnight.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Grid can easily handle EVs recharging at night currently (no pun intended, ha-ha). They are watching the situation for trends. It does take a while to build new powerplants, especially nuke, so there could be a pinch in 10 years or so depending on battery tech advances and EV purchase costs, price of gas.

Maybe a portion of the gasoline tax for roads & bridges would be taken over by taxing electricity usage or charging people based on odometer checks & vehicle weight at registration time. Energy tax.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: stranger706
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I like the 1.0L. I'd like to get one with a 6 speed. If for no other reason than to avoid the MTX75 and its awkward gear ratios.


Yes Ford is weird with the Focus transmissions.

The regular 2.0 Focus gets a short geared 5 spd, the 1.0 and 2.0 ecoboost both get a relatively tall 6 spd. A member here has one and I realized its the same gearing as my ST. The 6 spd is wonderful. I wonder why they don't just use it across the model range.


I have been wanting to put a sticker on the shift knob on my 2011 that just has 2,3,4,5,5.5 . It's awful. There isn't a first gear IMO - it is like starting off in second.

And mine has the "economy" gearing and the engine is still spinning pretty fast on the highway. That is the only real longstanding complaint with mine.

I do like the 2012+ Focuses, and especially the 2015 redesign ... but I won't buy another with the MTX75 5 speed. I'll get a ST (unlikely, too expensive) or a 1.0L before I buy another MTX75.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: stranger706
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I like the 1.0L. I'd like to get one with a 6 speed. If for no other reason than to avoid the MTX75 and its awkward gear ratios.


Yes Ford is weird with the Focus transmissions.

The regular 2.0 Focus gets a short geared 5 spd, the 1.0 and 2.0 ecoboost both get a relatively tall 6 spd. A member here has one and I realized its the same gearing as my ST. The 6 spd is wonderful. I wonder why they don't just use it across the model range.


I have been wanting to put a sticker on the shift knob on my 2011 that just has 2,3,4,5,5.5 . It's awful. There isn't a first gear IMO - it is like starting off in second.

And mine has the "economy" gearing and the engine is still spinning pretty fast on the highway. That is the only real longstanding complaint with mine.

I do like the 2012+ Focuses, and especially the 2015 redesign ... but I won't buy another with the MTX75 5 speed. I'll get a ST (unlikely, too expensive) or a 1.0L before I buy another MTX75.

I like the gearing on mine, with the exception of the short 5th. I agree though that 1st is about as tall as I want with my diff, but it makes it nice to run through the gears without a big gap. I don't really have a problem with the noise or vibration at 2500rpm, at 60mph, or 3k at 75, but it does kill mileage...

 

[hillclimber]

I drove a conventional Focus this summer when I was car shopping, I think it is really underrated. The changes they made for 2015, while subtle, add up.

Just wondering if you considered a Volt. I really think that technology is the future, albeit maybe 30 or 50 years away. (I'm actually very wary of predicting the future.) Let's just say it is interesting tech. Because with 100% electric vehicles, I keep hearing about battery R&D and how they will be lighter, hold more of a charge, etc, but we're still waiting. Range anxiety has to be a huge factor in electric vehicle acceptance.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: hillclimber
I drove a conventional Focus this summer when I was car shopping, I think it is really underrated. The changes they made for 2015, while subtle, add up.

Just wondering if you considered a Volt.
.

Volt is cool. I did consider it. I prefer the Ford C-Max Hybrid (non-plug-in) as a 2nd car to the Focus Electric. 2016 models out in a few months (late!) are the new generation of Volt, better in range and styling too.

Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV), like the Ford C-Max Energi, Fusion Energi, Prius Plug-In, etc. The one thing I don't like about the Volt is the way the planetary gearset (gears like most other hybrids use) has 4 clutches, where Toyota and Ford uses none.

Chevy will introduce a sedan hybrid using the new Malibu and the Volt's powertrain in a few months too, with a much cheaper-smaller battery (not a PHEV Malibu). http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1097...irst-of-several

Originally Posted By: hillclimber
Range anxiety has to be a huge factor in electric vehicle acceptance.
Its OK as long as you use the vehicle for known routes only, and for me 90% of my travel is within 30 miles of my house, no problem. For longer trips, a 500 mile range hybrid is used.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
If your range of use is limited, and you're willing to spend the money, who cares about the naysayers. You're adopting tech that benefits everyone in the long run, because while the liquid fuel paradigm is ever going away, IMO, Carnot will be marginalized by other tech where more electric platforms will be the norm. Good for you.

I'd avoid excess draw. High rates and parasitic increase the losses. The colder you can keep the battery, the slower the calendar agring due to chemical side reactions.

Low rate charging is more inconvenient, but low rate charge is better as it keeps over-potentials low which minimizes electrolyte oxidation and SEI growth.


You know your batteries! I was wondering if Nissan's warning to Leaf owners to avoid plugging in the charger when there is more than 80% in there applies to the brand of battery in the Ford Focus Electric? .... I see your point about cold batteries, and here in Colorado it can nearly get TOO cold for them. Certainly slow-charging might be great here like you say.


IIRC, the Nissan battery is a mix of NCA with Mn spinel, while the Ford battery is NMC.

Not charging above 80% probably has more to do with four things:
1) invocation of the active balancing circuits, and their respective thermal management, operational challenges, etc.
2) stress and strain in the electrodes at full intercolation
3) calibration of the battery management system
4) higher over potentials at high soc causing electrolyte oxidation

Especially with mixed cathodes, the soc vs voltage plot will be bimodal or have even more features to it. This can be a big challenge.

Be careful to try to prevent charging below freezing. While batteries can discharge ok below freezing, charging can cause issues.

Life will correlate closely to the number of rapid charging times executed.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
IIRC, the Nissan battery is a mix of NCA with Mn spinel, while the Ford battery is NMC.

Not charging above 80% probably has more to do with four things:
1) invocation of the active balancing circuits, and their respective thermal management, operational challenges, etc.
2) stress and strain in the electrodes at full intercolation
3) calibration of the battery management system
4) higher over potentials at high soc causing electrolyte oxidation

Especially with mixed cathodes, the soc vs voltage plot will be bimodal or have even more features to it. This can be a big challenge.

Life will correlate closely to the number of rapid charging times executed.


Amazing tech knowledge there. Thanks! Electrochemistry is a huge gap in my own knowledge (3 degrees, none in EE or Chem, only Mech, Aero, and Comp Sci for me). Interesting stuff! I luv going outside my comfort zone. I'm lost, and my range is low in that subject.

Question: At 120v and 12 amps this thing charges at, what is the charging efficiency? Waste heat is inevitable, yet is it big?
Certainly discharging the battery at high amps must create a lot of waste heat, yet its more variable.
I was really driving it hard yesterday, hittin the amps, since this car begs you to do that effortlessly, and I noticed the range display dropped precipitously. (I gotta quit that or get speeding tickets, seriously.)

'Bimodal' makes me think charge-discharge hysteresis applies here, though I'm sure I'm oversimplifying. (Although my last girlfriend was bimodal too.... hmmmm.... fun in Vegas anyway with the intercolation.)

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Be careful to try to prevent charging below freezing. While batteries can discharge ok below freezing, charging can cause issues.

---Wondering if the smart computer algorithms actually try to warm the batteries for those of us charging outside in Alaska or Colorado?

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Life will correlate closely to the number of rapid charging times executed.
Now you're just sounding like Dr. Phil. ... Oh, wait, batteries is the subject, not my life advice -- My bad. Now I understand. Got it.
Good thing its simplest to just plug the NMC (LG Chem brand) Li-Ion battery in a plain old 120v outlet.

Here is a view of the behemoth 600 lb battery assembly in the back:

http://www.at.ford.com/news/publications...eet_EMBARGO.pdf

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Update: I ran it to Zero Miles left about 300 feet from my driveway on the way home last night. It kept running that last few feet. Whew! Anybody driving these things may get to know the local towing companies too well. I cut it close.

It takes 18 hours (using 120v) to bring it back to full after a total discharge like last night, so today I only put on 41 miles total. No problem.

 

[Quattro Pete]

There is typically a decent buffer in most of these "miles to empty" type counters. When the one in my 530i gets down to zero, I still have about another gallon of gas left. Similar in the Q5.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Quattro, I wondered about how much margin is left in this thing, since its an electric, new to me. Makes sense they leave you some electrons left in the "tank" at a declared Zero Miles Remaining.
I'm seriously thinking about getting a Honda portable generator just so I can fetch it if/when stranded, and then I let the car sit by the side of the road for an hour to juice-up in the future if needed. Of course a generator is good for power outages at home too, 2 reasons now to get one.
This one handles at least 15 amps at the usual 120v:

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Quattro, I wondered about how much margin is left in this thing, since its an electric, new to me. Makes sense they leave you some electrons left in the "tank" at a declared Zero Miles Remaining.
I'm seriously thinking about getting a Honda portable generator just so I can fetch it if/when stranded, and then I let the car sit by the side of the road for an hour to juice-up in the future if needed. Of course a generator is good for power outages at home too, 2 reasons now to get one.
This one handles at least 15 amps at the usual 120v:

Put that sucker in the trunk and call it your roadside assistance kit!

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Put that sucker in the trunk and call it your roadside assistance kit!
Focus Electric's cargo area is way too small. The generator weighs 46 lbs, enough to matter a bit as well. Another possible idea is to get one of those "Push-Trailers" which are a small trailer that pushes using an electric motor, yet probably too much junk to buy.

Also, if I ran out of electrons & was stranded by the side of the road, I'd likely be within 10 miles of home anyway, close enough to pester a friend or the wife to bring a generator. Should be rare, maybe (?!?). I will keep a Car And Driver mag in the car for those times I have to wait 2 hours for rescuing/charging.

Never own one of these unless you really know where you're going. This doesn't work if you have to take off to somewhere. Must have a back-up long range car for that.