Ford 302 Lubrication-related failure

[OVERKILL]

Figured I'd post these up.

Background:

This engine had 1,000Km on it. Previously, it failed in a *similar* manner, same block. Three damaged cam lobes on an OTS Trick Flow Stage 1 cam.

This is the engine that came in the car a good friend of mine just bought. He got a good deal on the car, knowing the engine had an issue. On the way to pick-up the car, we grabbed a low-mileage (80,000Km) shortblock to swap the parts onto.

Details:

-Stock Ford Windsor block
-0.030 over-bore
-Weisco forged pistons
-Balanced rotating assembly, stock rods and stock OD bearings on crank
-High pressure oil pump (the first time, this time it was stock)
-Hamburger 7L pan
-Hamburger oil pump pick-up
-Custom camshaft
-Stock-style lifters
-Trick-Flow roller rockers
-Trick-Flow Twisted Wedge heads
-Weiand X-CELerator intake
-Holley 650DP Carburetor
-MSD Pro Billet Distributor
-MSD 6AL CD Ignition (6,800RPM pill in it)

Oil used: Valvoline VR-1 20w50

Lifters: Note the pins are coming out of several of them

Lifter that spun:

Scored lifter bore due to lack of lubrication:

What happened? Cavitation and oil starvation due to excessively heavy oil and a poorly designed pick-up that has a screen that does now flow enough volume and has far too little surface area.

The FIRST time this happened, this block should have been scrapped. The lifter bores would have to have been re-aligned, which we doubt happened. The same oiling setup was maintained for the second time around, which resulted in the exact same thing happening again.

I have more pictures, but these are to start.

 

[rclint]

Good c all on the problem, I could never have trouble shoot the problem by pictures. I wonder how many times this would have been blamed on the oil though had you not had the knowledge to properly trouble shoot the problem, then make an educated decision !!

I noted you done away with the high pressure oil pump, good call, a guy at work that "knows it all when it comes to engines" talks about his truck, all he done when rebuilding it ( gaskets, etc) then he always throws out, yea this baby is bored .030 over with a highflo oil pump... I just sit with my mouth shut, it would make zero difference if I spent hours trying to educate him nothing would change.

 

[Johnny]

So what oil is going back in this beauty? I hope not another 20W50. Back in the day (70's, 80's) when we use to build Ford engines we always used Melling high volume oil pumps and most of the time we ran a good 10W-30.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
So what oil is going back in this beauty? I hope not another 20W50. Back in the day (70's, 80's) when we use to build Ford engines we always used Melling high volume oil pumps and most of the time we ran a good 10W-30.


It currently has Delvac 1 5w40 straight from my stash in it. Has great oil pressure and has been daily driven until recently. He's just waiting on a safety for it, and he'll be driving it again.

It has a 6,300RPM pill in it that will remain until one of two things happens:

A stock pan is put back on it with a stock pick-up to allow for proper oil volume at higher RPM.

OR

The Hamburger pick-up is modified, the screen removed and the base enlarged to allow it to flow a sufficient volume of oil.

 

[Pablo]

Very interesting.

I like the word choice. Not that the oil itself failed. Bad decisions by the human. (Not so) Nice real life experience.

 

[ericthepig]

Thick crowd take a hit.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
Very interesting.

I like the word choice. Not that the oil itself failed. Bad decisions by the human. (Not so) Nice real life experience.


Now if it had been Mobil 1..... LMAO!

Seriously though, it was builder/user error in our opinion (myself and my friend who I worked with on the swap) as this was the recommended weight to be run in this combo.... Which was not the correct weight for the pick-up, nor the intended RPM range of the engine.

The high RPM led to cavitation due to the restrictive nature of the pick-up, and exaggerated by the weight of the oil. A lighter oil, and improved/modified pick-up is necessary to operate this engine at the range in which it is intended without this occurring.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ericthepig
Thick crowd take a hit.


I think the fact that the car was probably run cool at the track for the best ET made things even worse, as the oil would not have been hot, and subsequently, VERY thick. Making the problem even worse.

It's trying to stretch it's legs to 6,800RPM and the oil pump starts moving nothing but air.... Scoring, scuffing.... Lifters start to seize in their bores and start getting smacked by the billet cam.... Starts to knock the pins out of the lifters. One of the lifters finally gets smacked hard enough that it tries to rotate... Breaks the dog-bone, does a full rotation and all of a sudden the roller is tracking sideways on the lobe. Noises happen. Car is shut down.

This is the result.

 

[Johnny]

I agree, not the brand but the weight. The 5W-40 will serve this engine well.

 

[OVERKILL]

OK, I've got a pile more pictures, here's the first batch:

You can see the lifter bore where the lifter rotated. And the bore beside it is heavily scored due to lack of lubrication.

 

[sprint]

HI, just my two cents, but I'd make sure the valvespring tension
at assembled height is good for that cam.
even a little valve float is rough on the whole valvetrain.
john

 

[cronk]

I wonder if there are other issues here.
People run VR1 20w50 at the drag strips all across the country every day with no issues. Hamburger is a well respected name in oil pans and pickups.
You say the oil pump was high pressure, which seems like an odd choice for this engine. High volume, would be fine, it would just bypass the unneeded oil.

You also say stock style lifters, did you consult with the cam manufacturer to see what lifters they recommend? Stock style may not be compatible.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: cronk
I wonder if there are other issues here.
People run VR1 20w50 at the drag strips all across the country every day with no issues. Hamburger is a well respected name in oil pans and pickups.
You say the oil pump was high pressure, which seems like an odd choice for this engine. High volume, would be fine, it would just bypass the unneeded oil.

You also say stock style lifters, did you consult with the cam manufacturer to see what lifters they recommend? Stock style may not be compatible.


The lifters were provided by the cam grinder.

The valve springs were provided by the cam grinder and installed at the height he specified.

The high pressure pump was indeed a poor choice for this combination.

There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THE VR-1. It was simply VR-1 in this particular engine, it could have been any 20w50. This engine had STOCK bearings in it. The 302 spec's 5w30.

Also, as I stated, this block should have been scrapped the FIRST time this happened. Since it wasn't, and the combination was re-created on it, the same thing happened again. Not really a surprise.

The same parts are running on a stock shortblock now without issue, with the limiter capped as I stated earlier until the oil issue is fixed.

302's are NOT routinely spun to 7K. Most at the strip are forced induction and spun below the stock limiter, which is 6,250. Those that ARE spun are high dollar engines that aren't built in a stock block and have a lot more going on than what was put into this one.

 

[Jason2007]

One issue with the stock 5.0 oil pan and high volume oil pumps is that the oil pan will not be able to hold enough oil and the pump will starve the top end which could be your problem.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
One issue with the stock 5.0 oil pan and high volume oil pumps is that the oil pan will not be able to hold enough oil and the pump will starve the top end which could be your problem.


This was a 7L pan as per the first post, and the pump was high pressure the first time around. 2nd time around, stock volume and pressure.

Also, the issue with 302's pumping the pan dry has been greatly over-hyped; most aftermarket heads have huge return holes which prevent this from happening. There would have to be a serious restriction, or somebody going WOT with 20w50 in the pan on a stone cold engine to create such a problem.

 

[Jason2007]

I should have read more, my fault. But I do think the 20w50 is a bit too much for the 5.0

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
I should have read more, my fault. But I do think the 20w50 is a bit too much for the 5.0


So do I

That's why it has 5w40 in it right now.

 

[DragRace]

Originally Posted By: Jason2007
I should have read more, my fault. But I do think the 20w50 is a bit too much for the 5.0


I agree

Plus there was too many RPM's for the stock block as well.

 

[Boss302fan]

I just had a Boss 302 engine rebuilt by one of the best in the industry and he said to go with VR-1 20W50 or Joe Gibbs Hot Rod 15W50. It all comes down to clearances and who builds the engine. My engine like all Boss 302 engines required 7 quarts in the pan. Most likely his problems were not caused by the oil.

 

[d00df00d]

What were the pick-up and screen like on yours? Perhaps OVERK1LL can share more details, too, and you can compare.