Ethanol in 93 Octane?

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Like I said, you can check 4 yourself; water will pull the alcohol out out any gas you buy and you just drain off the water (vodka for robots) on the bottom until fuel starts running. Simple chemistry 101 guys.



Here's the Chemistry 315 problem (graduate level): Calculate how much you just LOWERED the octane of the remaining gasoline by removing one of its key octane boosters. It was blended dependent on having that alcohol present to achieve its rated octane... so is it now about 80 octane (R+M)/2? Or maybe 75? 65?

I find it hilarious that you think such a fuel would be *less* harmful to an engine than E10 or E15.

For the record- Methanol works better as an additive and butynol is a better biofuel alternative to gasoline than ethanol... I'm not on the side of the farm lobby pushing for ethanol- but ethanol does WORK for that purpose and given the correct polymers used in the fuel system, its a net benefit over alcohol-free fuel.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Like I said, you can check 4 yourself; water will pull the alcohol out out any gas you buy and you just drain off the water (vodka for robots) on the bottom until fuel starts running. Simple chemistry 101 guys.



Here's the Chemistry 315 problem (graduate level): Calculate how much you just LOWERED the octane of the remaining gasoline by removing one of its key octane boosters. It was blended dependent on having that alcohol present to achieve its rated octane... so is it now about 80 octane (R+M)/2? Or maybe 75? 65?

I find it hilarious that you think such a fuel would be *less* harmful to an engine than E10 or E15.

For the record- Methanol works better as an additive and butynol is a better biofuel alternative to gasoline than ethanol... I'm not on the side of the farm lobby pushing for ethanol- but ethanol does WORK for that purpose and given the correct polymers used in the fuel system, its a net benefit over alcohol-free fuel.

Certainly ethanol is the preferred oxygenate these days, ever since MTBE was effectively discontinued. I thought MTBE produced the fewest issues with fuel systems, although the leakage into water supplies wasn't great.

Still - methanol is nasty. I remember seeing older owners manuals stating that up to 5% was OK if the fuel contained corrosion inhibitors, but I haven't seen that in any owners manual in 20 years.

In my reading of the situation, there are parts of the country with such low demand for premium that 93 octane is the common (R+M)/2 octane rating for premium. It doesn't work out so well when there's actually a pretty high demand for premium and the high-octane output has to be spread around. Even so, it's ethanol that really helps by boosting octane rating a couple of points.

Also - isn't degradation in storage rather overstated? I certainly understand the marine environment where it's surrounded by moisture and where the tanks tend to be vented to the air. However, most fuel storage environments are sealed. I remember someone suggesting that air enters to fill the void, but I though it was fuel vapor. We have all these strange notions about having to avoid ethanol at all costs. Certainly fresher fuel is better, but it's not as bad as companies marketing ethanol fuel "treatments" makes it out to be. We're not getting modern engines and fuel systems failing left and right as a result of ethanol in fuel.

 

[Garak]

Here, the 93 octane is pretty much the only premium that isn't E0, so I would gather it's safe to assume it has ethanol in it, as advertised.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
For the record- Methanol works better as an additive....

...except for its corrosiveness and worse properties with respect to water. One major here uses it in its winter fuel and I'm absolutely furious about it, and the G37 doesn't like it much either.

 

[nleksan]

There are a few stations around me, all Shell (one Sunoco where I get 100/104UL at a pump) with 93 and one with 94 Ethanol-free.

My cars are all modified and running custom Dyno tunes, with maps selectable for 100/104/110 race gas but the base is for my standard 93/94 E-Free gasoline.

2 weeks ago I filled up at a Shell, 93 (Yes, the V-Power Nitro+ whatever), but 10pct EtOh. The car ran like [censored] until I got it down enough to add 3gal of VP 104UL which fixed the issue within 30sec....

I don't want corn in my combustion chambers!

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: nleksan
There are a few stations around me, all Shell (one Sunoco where I get 100/104UL at a pump) with 93 and one with 94 Ethanol-free.

My cars are all modified and running custom Dyno tunes, with maps selectable for 100/104/110 race gas but the base is for my standard 93/94 E-Free gasoline.

2 weeks ago I filled up at a Shell, 93 (Yes, the V-Power Nitro+ whatever), but 10pct EtOh. The car ran like [censored] until I got it down enough to add 3gal of VP 104UL which fixed the issue within 30sec....

I don't want corn in my combustion chambers!


Cool story.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Like I said, you can check 4 yourself; water will pull the alcohol out out any gas you buy and you just drain off the water (vodka for robots) on the bottom until fuel starts running. Simple chemistry 101 guys.



Here's the Chemistry 315 problem (graduate level): Calculate how much you just LOWERED the octane of the remaining gasoline by removing one of its key octane boosters. It was blended dependent on having that alcohol present to achieve its rated octane... so is it now about 80 octane (R+M)/2? Or maybe 75? 65?

I find it hilarious that you think such a fuel would be *less* harmful to an engine than E10 or E15.

For the record- Methanol works better as an additive and butynol is a better biofuel alternative to gasoline than ethanol... I'm not on the side of the farm lobby pushing for ethanol- but ethanol does WORK for that purpose and given the correct polymers used in the fuel system, its a net benefit over alcohol-free fuel.
I think I mentioned you could run this resultant small quantity of fuel FROM THIS EXPERIMENT in your low-compression push mower or 2cycle sting trimmer. It was just an exercise to see if you local fuel does contain ethanol, and, to approximate how much is in there. If you want to boost octane back ( for bike use) you could add xylene and Toluene sourced from the hardware store paint section. I would put a dribble of lucas top cyl lube into the mix.

 

[John_Conrad]

why add the oil? the xylene and toluene would be all that is needed as they more closely approximate the 14:1 needed by your engine.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
For the record- Methanol works better as an additive....

...except for its corrosiveness and worse properties with respect to water. One major here uses it in its winter fuel and I'm absolutely furious about it, and the G37 doesn't like it much either.


Neither methanol nor ethanol is particularly corrosive to most metals, including aluminum, in the additive levels found in gasoline. In additive levels, they're about equivalent. Some contend that ethanol is actually a little MORE corrosive at additive levels. PURE anhydrous methanol is listed as "mildly" corrosive to lead and aluminum, but if you're dealing with that you already have huge fuel system modifications. A bigger concern is gasket and hose materials, but again in typical 10-15% additive levels, its just not the boogeyman than internet lore has made it out to be. Sure, you have to update your fuel system for modern fuels- but the benefits over older additives like MTBE are huge.

 

[AP9]

If that were true, I would have been exclusively buying premium gasoline for the past several years. Unfortunately, I live in a corn state where the big-ag lobbyists force all of our gasoline to be diluted with ethanol, so it's virtually impossible to come across around here.

If you are interested in seeking out E0, the best reference for this that I know of is http://pure-gas.org

440Magnum, don't forget that ethanol makes the gasoline go stale faster as well.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: AP9
440Magnum, don't forget that ethanol makes the gasoline go stale faster as well.


What is stale gasoline?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: AP9
440Magnum, don't forget that ethanol makes the gasoline go stale faster as well.


What is stale gasoline?


Repeat something often enough and they'll even believe it.

Of course there's going to be an issue with a combination of old fashioned gas cans, wet environments, and/or vented tanks. However, I think they whole thing about gas going "stale" is way overblown. Gas going stale is all about oxidation, and what modern car or gas station tanks allow for much oxidation? Ethanol really isn't going to contribute to it unless the storage conditions are poor.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: AP9
If that were true, I would have been exclusively buying premium gasoline for the past several years. Unfortunately, I live in a corn state where the big-ag lobbyists force all of our gasoline to be diluted with ethanol, so it's virtually impossible to come across around here.



folks like you are truly an interesting species. Every thing is the fault of the ag lobby.

Iowa is the largest corn producing state.. over 300 million bushel more than Illinois (3rd place) and Nebraska (2nd place), each. Yet, we have regular, mid grade, and premium all available in both ethanol free and ethanol blend varieties. If the ag lobby is so powerful, then why do we have all the choices here just across the river from you guys?

And the ag sector runs the state legislature in Iowa, since it is the primary revenue generator in the state, whereas the Illinois legislature is run by Chicago and the burbs. You might want to look at the quid pro quo that is going on in the metro area that is limiting your fuel choices.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Neither methanol nor ethanol is particularly corrosive to most metals, including aluminum, in the additive levels found in gasoline. In additive levels, they're about equivalent. Some contend that ethanol is actually a little MORE corrosive at additive levels. PURE anhydrous methanol is listed as "mildly" corrosive to lead and aluminum, but if you're dealing with that you already have huge fuel system modifications. A bigger concern is gasket and hose materials, but again in typical 10-15% additive levels, its just not the boogeyman than internet lore has made it out to be. Sure, you have to update your fuel system for modern fuels- but the benefits over older additives like MTBE are huge.


The corrosion issues have to do with the non-PURE Hydrous Ethanol. It's that ability to attract and phase separate that really corrodes older systems- and I've seen it first hand in OPE.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
The corrosion issues have to do with the non-PURE Hydrous Ethanol. It's that ability to attract and phase separate that really corrodes older systems- and I've seen it first hand in OPE.


What exactly is "non-PURE Hydrous Ethanol"?

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: HangFire
The corrosion issues have to do with the non-PURE Hydrous Ethanol. It's that ability to attract and phase separate that really corrodes older systems- and I've seen it first hand in OPE.


What exactly is "non-PURE Hydrous Ethanol"?


I was commenting on the previous assertion about "PURE anhydrous methanol"... The fact that Methanol and Ethanol as found in consumer gasoline is neither pure, nor anhydrous.

This is the second post in a row where you've taken zero effort to understand what I've written, especially in relation to what came before. Maybe you need to take a break.

 

[Garak]

Basically, this is the problem, and always has been. Fuel and its additives are exposed to air. Air on this planet has a lot of water in it. The water goes into the fuel, and we no longer have anhydrous additives. Water in fuel has been causing one problem or another for decades.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
This is the second post in a row where you've taken zero effort to understand what I've written, especially in relation to what came before. Maybe you need to take a break.


Second post in a row where I've not taken what you say without question you mean? All I did was ask you what you meant by a string of words that didn't make sense. Was I wrong? I really didn't know you were keeping some kind of score.

Just so I don't misunderstand you again, are you are saying that they don't use anhydrous EtOH when blending with gasoline or are you saying water is absorbed from the atmosphere?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Basically, this is the problem, and always has been. Fuel and its additives are exposed to air. Air on this planet has a lot of water in it. The water goes into the fuel, and we no longer have anhydrous additives. Water in fuel has been causing one problem or another for decades.

Does it really in a modern fuel system? I remember discussing this and researching it. Recent fuel systems have a whole lot of things to keep air out of the stored fuel.

This is actually a pretty old blog posting from an analyst at GasBuddy:

Quote:
https://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Maintenance-Monday-Shelf-life-of-gasoline/1715-412027-322.aspx

The ideal way to keep gasoline most fresh over a long period of time is in an air tight container, such as in a newer vehicle. I have a late model vehicle that I drive only in the warmer months, and only when it's running ideally. Back in 2008, my transmission failed, and I had nearly a tank full of premium gasoline. As it turns out, I didn't start the car again until earlier this year. The premium gasoline had sit nearly 18 months in my gasoline tank. After the car had been fixed, I started it using the fuel in the tank. It started up after priming just fine (after letting a car sit for that amount of time, it becomes necessary to prime the oil system to lubricate the engine before attempting to start it). While 18 month old gasoline wasn't the best idea, it still ran my car. I then drove the car around town to heat cycle the engine and to attempt to burn off the older fuel. There were no issues with my car at all from using the old gasoline.
** **
The lesson here seems to be that gasoline will hold fine over a few years- as long as it is properly stored. Open air storage (in a container that isn't sealed) significantly reduces life. Sealed storage (in a tank or vehicle) will mean little chemical changes over time.


The issue is that we don't have "open air storage". I know that 90s vintage gas can I used would take in air from the atmosphere. Boats are of course and issue because of a marine environment and that they're typically not the same kind of sealed systems used in cars. I thought that modern fuel systems are pressurized with fuel vapor and purge air in short order.

 

[HangFire]

What Garak said.

I've experienced it with my lesser used vehicle, classic water in gasoline problems, rough running and stumbling after sitting unused for a week or more. E-free gas cured it instantly. I even went back and forth a few times to prove it to myself.

I don't care how the water gets in there, it doesn't bother any of my other vehicles, which get used daily, but let the truck sit for a week or more with E10 and it'll stumble and cough and even stall for the first few minutes of running. That's water and phase separation.