Engine oil with aftermarket turbocharger

[WellEnoughAlone]

Hello everyone, I've been lurking here for awhile and thought I'd finally post to get some opinions.

I've got a 2007 Honda Fit with about 44,000 miles. I installed an aftermarket turbo kit (complete with engine management and larger injectors) about 2,000 miles ago. I changed the oil when I installed the kit (had to drop the oil pan to install the turbo's oil return), and have been using Mobil 1 5W-30 (spec is 5W-20). Normally, I wouldn't think of this as anything to question, but I'm currently battling with some rich idle issues (my wideband likes to sit at 11 or 12:1 AFR at idle.. Oh noes!), which causes fuel dilution on a pretty extreme scale, especially compared to stock. AFR's are perfect everywhere else (oscillates at cruise, shuts off at decel, and ~12:1 in boost, all tuned with my laptop), though, so I usually like to warm up the oil to 180-200F every time I drive it, and usually do so on 2 or 4 lane undivided highways (I live on the border of the rural areas of central MI).

Before the turbo, I changed the oil according to my maintinence minder at somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000 miles (depending on how friskily I drove) with Mobil 1 5W-20 and either a Mobil 1, Purolator, or K&N oil filter. The car was happy, and the oil was only vaguely dirty when I drained it. Mobil 1 has been used since the 2nd change, and it hasn't burned more than .25 of a quart on my longest OCI (a bit over 8k miles).

Now, however, I've changed my oil once already at 1,500mi because of the aforementioned dilution issue (dipstick smelt like a gas station, and the oil became dark and [relatively] gritty, which was NOT ok with me). When I drained the oil, it was pretty dark. It didn't smell much like gas once it was out, probably because I had taken a drive and kept my oil temps above 180F for about 30 minutes (with the hope of evaporating off some of that unwanted gas).

Part of the problem may very well be my air filter. The filter that came with the kit is a stainless steel mesh cone filter. It looks cool, and sounds (and flows) great, but I can see right through it which doesn't give me the warm fuzzies. It's a very fine mesh, but come on! It's steel!

I'm ok with changing every 3k, I expected that when I got the kit. I'm also planning on starting to do some UOAs, and this weekend will be devoted to re-wiring my Greddy E-manage to directly control the injectors (I'm currently running off of a MAP adjustment tune, and apparently my ECU is too clever for that. MAP values input into the computer have very little bearing on the idle AFR's. Tricky.). I will be changing the oil again soon. I've got a Mobil 1 EP oil filter, which I'm thinking I'll leave on there when I change it. No sense throwing out a 7$ filter after 1500 miles.

Does anyone have any reccomendations as to what oil I should run to try to resist this dilution issue? What about an oil in general? My oil temps were pretty cold before the turbo, rarely ever seeing 180F, and I can only reach 200F now with extended driving. If I goose it a little bit, though, they can spike to 230 or so. Not hot by any means for a motor oil, I usually don't worry about oil temps until I see numbers approaching 300F.

 

[mcrn]

My first recommendation would be to get your UOA and have it sent to Terry Dyson for further analysis. Until then I would say since you are not stressing the oil with Temps almost any 5W20 will take the temps so then its just a matter of the fuel dilution which PP seems to be very good at handling. Also since you are changing it out so early Motorcraft 5W20 would be another good choice since it is a rather cheap oil and its a synthetic blend. Another good one that is very cheap and seems to good in hondas is exxon dino oil. This is all IMHO. I do not claim to be an expert. Also if you want to spend money RLI seems to be one of the best at dealing with fuel dilution but it is very expensive compared to the others. But I think this is a perfect situation for Dyson.

 

[Jim Allen]

First off, let me be the first to say

There are a lot of turbo guys here who can help you. For the interim, I'd say go to a robust grade 40 oil and change it often.

I think that's a band-aid, however, and your better answer is to repair the source of the problem because oil will always be just a band-aid, no matter how good it may be. Don't know which kit you bought, but it sounds like it has some issues that could/should be explored. I know you need extra fuel to avoid detonation. It may be they overdid that a little to assure no immediate piston meltdown. Or it may be that's what's needed and severe fuel dilution of the oil is the price for the performance. Based on what I've seen, however, I know there can be a good balance, or moderation of gains, in these things that avoid problems like yours. But let's hear what the experts say.

Glad you joined us!

 

[XCELERATIONRULES]

I hate to break it to you guys,but adding a turbo to a high compression motor is not an option,unless you're willing to have some fuel issues.
If you notice,most motors offered in a turbo version are typically 8:1 compression.
Stock 4 bangers today are high compression to get a decent power output in regular form.

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I'm a bit uncomfortable running a 40wt in this motor.. The spec is a 20, and it's getting to be winter around here, so 40 seems excessive. Not sure I wanna test the pour point of a 40wt at the -20 or lower we're predicted to see this winter.

Also, the kit I have has been used on many other Fits without problem. The manufacturer has no idea why mine likes to idle rich.

Turbos on (relatively) high compression motors are not uncommon at all. I don't know of many cars made nowadays with 8:1 compression... The VW GTI has 9+, and my car has 10.1. It ran on regular 87 before, and I'm running 94 now. No pinging or detonation is present, and the car runs at perfect AFR's everywhere except idle. I'm only running 6psi of boost right now, nothing extreme at all. Added fuel is a good thing, but it's a computer controlled car! 12:1 idle isn't acceptable, it ain't a carb!

Anyway, thanks for the opinions, I'm going to try some PP 5w-30 next change. Once I get the idle fueling sorted, I should have no problems, changing oil every 3k or so. Just gotta hold over until then. Anyone with a turbo'd car have any insight?

 

[d00df00d]

RLI BioSyn is probably your best bet. To the now common anecdotes about those oils, I can add that a friend of mine is using their SAE30 in a fully built 2.0L stroker engine in his Mini Cooper S (supercharged). It's doing extremely well despite making over 300 bhp (low boost) on rod angles that would make an automotive engineer sick.

I'd recommend their 5w-30 or 10w-30. I wouldn't go to a 40-weight; it's fine to step up a grade if you have to, but more than that is just wasting power and generating heat with no real benefits.

For filters, nothing's better than an Amsoil EaO, AFAIK. IF you have to buy locally, though, use Purolator PureOne, Mobil 1, K&N, or Wix (NAPA Gold).

Good call on the UOAs. Nice to see someone with the sense to give a highly modded car the attention it needs. I highly recommend Terry Dyson's service. It may seem expensive now, but you'll change your mind as soon as your first analysis comes back.

Are you going to use a wideband O2 sensor? If your engine management system can run off that full-time, that'll probably help keep your AFRs in tight control.

 

[XCELERATIONRULES]

I believe most turbo's call for 0w 40 oil,and the few high compression turbos come with an inter cooler.
The added air forced into the engine prevents oil dilution by an overly rich fuel mixture.
Did you happen to try running the smaller injectors before switching them out?

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

Thanks for the response! I'll look in to RLI, I was just reading a thread about it actually.

I do have a wideband O2 already installed, that's how I know what AFR's I'm running. My management system CAN self-tune from a wideband, but it's not a good solution. All it does is 'guesstimate' a fuel adjustment map based on target values and a wideband input, but it's more to create a basemap than to self-adjust. For instance, if you're driving down the road, and blip the throttle to downshift, your AFR's go lean, then rich, then back to target, all very quickly. The E-manage would adjust ALL of the cells you accessed during the blip, and overwrite them based on unreliable transient O2 sensor voltages. Not good. With what I'm using it's generally a better practice to tune with the wideband, and then keep it on the dash to monitor.

I'll definitely look in to RLI, but for my next change (which looks to be coming all-too-soon) I might have to use PP from a local place. Not sure I have time to have it shipped just yet.


By the way, I liked your story about your friend's cooper. I'm actually going to Kettering University to BECOME an automotive engineer, and let me tell you I got a pretty scary mental image when you said that! More power to him if he can make it work! It makes my bearing-senses tingle.... ouch.

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

The kit manufacturer calls for 5W or 10W 30, depening on climate. It's a Garrett T25 with ball bearing center section, and BB turbos hate both heavy oil and high pressures. I actually have an oil flow RESTRICTOR on the oil inlet to prevent the seals from exploding. Tricky things, turbo seals. Tough to design a seal around a shaft rotating at 100,000+ RPM!

I do have an intercooler, front mounted, right in front of the radiator, behind the bumper.

I didn't try using my smaller (stock) injectors, as my fuel/spark controller came with a base map for the 310cc/min units. I didn't want to spend the time re-tuning (un-tuning?) the unit for my stockers. Plus, the stockers wouldn't flow NEAR enough for boost. 14:1 air:fuel at boost = blown motor faster than you can wonder what that noise was..

My in-boost AFR's are around 12, which is great. My fuel dilution isn't happening in boost, I'm sure. I'm not in boost all that much at all at this point. Still taking it easy until I can be sure I've got good (thick enough) oil for the bearings before I apply 70% extra power to them. It's when I'm idling(turbo has no effect, basically a stock motor) that I'm running too rich.

Thanks for all the posts you guys! Keep em coming!

 

[mechtech2]

Put a hotter thermostat in there, like somewhat stock 195 deg F or so.
When you need it it is open anyway!
If you are tuned right at the edge for the colder thermostat, it is a false dyno flash tune reading, and not right for the street. What tuning do you have? They should adjust the idle.
Do you have a large MAF on the car? That will screw up the idle.

 

[Drew99GT]

I wouldn't mess with the thermostat for pete sake. That puppy will produce a lot more heat then stock.

I'd just run a good synthetic 5w-30 and try and get the idle AFR fixed. Don't go trying to bandaid it with $15/quart oils and hot thermostats and such.

A lot of other factory turbocharged cars have severe fuel dilution issues, like the DSI 2.3L Mazda engine.

I'd also get a UOA done soon to see how much fuel is actually in the oil.

Plus, since you drive it a lot it sounds like and it runs at operating temps often, that will help things out.

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

I've tuned it myself, on the street. I've got the stock thermostat in there right now, which opens ~170F. I haven't had it on a dyno, I've been just doing street runs (back roads and highways) while monitoring the A/F, then adjusting the map and trying again. My management system is the GReddy E-Manage Ultimate, which is as close to a stand-alone ECU as you can get without tearing out the stock computer.

My car doesn't have a MAF, my computer came stock as speed/density, which makes things a little bit more difficult to spoof correctly..

I WOULD and COULD take it to a shop for a professional dyno tune, but I'm stubborn and independent. I've done it this far without any shops! I'm going for having it dialed in close on the fuel map myself, then taking it to the local speed shop for a dyno tune to adjust the spark tables and get a pretty little sheet certifying I have a beastly Fit. I'm going for 160whp, and then I'll up the boost to 10lbs...

 

[double vanos]

I have a Mazdaspeed 3 and these cars exhibit fuel dilution issues until they are fully broken in (around 15k for my car).

After seeing that PP seems to keep it together when in a fuel dilution scenario, I started using it.
The 5w30 PP meets Honda/Acura HTO-06 specs. My car loves it! Cheers and get back to us with your results.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: WellEnoughAlone
By the way, I liked your story about your friend's cooper. I'm actually going to Kettering University to BECOME an automotive engineer, and let me tell you I got a pretty scary mental image when you said that! More power to him if he can make it work! It makes my bearing-senses tingle.... ouch.

The builder took the engine from 1.6L to 2.0L with stroke alone. The new rod/stroke ratio is 1.4, there are no balance shafts (doesn't come with them stock), and once it gets a good tune it'll be hitting 7500 RPM daily (it's limited to 6k for now). The builder's own Cooper S is putting down well over 500 whp on exactly the same build so I doubt it's catastrophic, but it can't be easy on the oil.


Originally Posted By: double vanos
I have a Mazdaspeed 3 and these cars exhibit fuel dilution issues until they are fully broken in (around 15k for my car).

After seeing that PP seems to keep it together when in a fuel dilution scenario, I started using it.
The 5w30 PP meets Honda/Acura HTO-06 specs. My car loves it! Cheers and get back to us with your results.

Got a link to a UOA or two? If what you say is true, I'd like to be able to spread the word.

 

[Drew99GT]

If you search for Mazda Speed 3 and CX-7 UOA results, you'll see that they have pretty severe fuel dilution issues. There are several posted here.

 

[hooligan24]

would you be able to put a scan gauge in the car? sounds to me that you are never getting to closed loop operation... maybe the T-stat is too cold, and is not allowing the motor to warm up enough.

My car doesnt reach closed loop until coolant temps reach 160 degrees F. owners that install 160 degree t-stats find out how bad their MPG's get when cruising down the freeway in open loop.

Do you have any way to pull fuel out at idle? could also be a bad o2 sensor. do you have a way to see if the computer is setting off hiddin engine trouble codes?.....ones that dont turn the check engine light on

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: XCELERATIONRULES
I hate to break it to you guys,but adding a turbo to a high compression motor is not an option,unless you're willing to have some fuel issues.
If you notice,most motors offered in a turbo version are typically 8:1 compression.
Stock 4 bangers today are high compression to get a decent power output in regular form.

The VW 1.8T used 9.5:1 compression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_petrol_engines#1.8_20VT_110-176kW

Somehow, UOAs on this engine didn't reveal excessive fuel in oil.

I'm going to stick with the theory that the low temp thermostat is causing too many problems due to the engine running in open loop with cold start enrichment.

Oh, and about the oil viscosity. Greddy makes an oil they recommend for turbochargers. It is a 5w40 PAO oil.

 

[Drew99GT]

Folks, he has THE STOCK thermostat in there. If that was causing fuel dilution issues, it would show up in Honda Fits without an aftermarket turbo kit.

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

Well everyone, I'm back!

So I took a little forced break from posting, work got very hectic for awhile. Today, though, I'm the only engineer in the office! Ask me how much work I'm getting done

So, here's the update on my Fit --

I went in and re-wired my fuel computer. I'm now intercepting fuel, spark, and Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) signals. I'm tapping RPM and TPS.

Now that I'm not trying to trick the computer into running my 310cc/min injectors (stock is 180cc/min), the car runs much better. I've got the injectors scaled down via the E-Manage Ultimate in vacuum, and then in boost the E-Manage clamps the MAP voltage to the computer, and then basically takes over the correct fueling and spark control.

End result here being that I now idle dead nuts on 15.0:1, and I also have perfect AFR's elsewhere. The car runs great. (If you can't tell, I'm really proud of figuring this out without having to pay someone $$$ for "tuning").

Now, I do have some questions (and comments) still left over...

The car does not stay in warm-up enrichment for long, guys. I can watch my AFRs and my closed/open loop status real-time. On a cold start these days (high 20s Farenheit to low 30s), I'm in open loop enrichment (~14:1 Air:Fuel) for about 20 seconds.

That's right, 20 seconds. That surprised me a lot. At this point, the heated oxygen sensor is good to go and it performs it's tests (the car runs from full rich to full lean in
Now, on to the oil (which is why we're all here, right?). I've still got the M1 5w30 in there now. Stock spec is 5w20. I ran M1 0w20 for awhile, and noticed little. What I'm worried about is finding the oil that is best suited to this motor when combined with the turbo. While watching the oil temp/pressure gauges I've got installed in a filter sandwitch block, I see ~75-80 Psi on a cold morning start. I usually give it a minute or so (to hit closed loop and circulate fluids a bit) and the oil pressure is ~65 Psi when I start out. My oil temp gauge is pegged at 100F (doesn't go any lower than that LOL).

I have noticed that on my cold morning drives, I will usually never hit 150F oil temps

. My water temperature (and therefore heater function) will hit 170-175 within 5 minutes, but oil temp lags a while (predictably).

This isn't really surprising. What is is what I noticed and deduced after reading AeHass's articles (some of the info is to be taken with a grain of salt IMO, but it's a very good discussion). Even on the stock 5W20, the HOT (~180-190F) oil pressure would be ~18-20Psi at idle, but it hits 60psi by 2500 RPM or so. From there it increases much slower until it makes ~ 75-80 Psi at redline.

With the 5w30 I've got in there now, it does roughly the same thing, except all numbers are boosted by about 3-5psi. Idle pressure remains 18-20. This behavior leads me to believe that I hit oil pressure relief at about 2500 rpm, and then start to overwhelm it at higher rpms. After reading AeHass' writings on this subject, it made me a little nervous. It did the same thing, though with the stock 5w20 grade, as well as the 'ultra-thin' 0w20. Maybe that's just how this motor was designed to operate? Does anyone have any insight?

Sorry about my short history of long posts. I'm really interested in anything automotive, and I guess that shows here huh?

 

[WellEnoughAlone]

Also, I forgot to mention -- now that the rich idle problem is solved, my fuel dilution problems have all but dissappeared! After a good hot jaunt down the freeway my oil is less dark (guessing that M1 EP filter is doing it's job), not gritty (it was marginally so before the fix), and has only the faintest aroma of gasoline. WooHoo!