Emissions Standards Then and Now

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Time to put things into perspective.

First, no one wants dirty smoggy air. That's something we can all agree upon.

So how far have we come, baby?

From the EPA: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/milestones.htm

Originally Posted By: EPA

Air pollution and cars were first linked in the early 1950’s by a California researcher who determined that traffic was to blame for the smoggy skies over Los Angeles. At the time, typical new cars were emitting nearly 13 grams per mile hydrocarbons (HC), 3.6 grams per mile nitrogen oxides (NOx), and 87grams per mile carbon monoxide (CO). Since then, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has set standards to bring down levels of these pollutants, and the auto industry has responded by developing new emission control technologies.


Today, NOx standards: http://www3.epa.gov/tier2/documents/f99051.pdf

Originally Posted By: EPA

The new tailpipe standards are set at an average standard of 0.07 grams per mile for nitrogen oxides for all classes of passenger vehicles beginning in 2004. This includes all light-duty trucks, as well as the largest SUVs. Vehicles weighing less than 6000 pounds will be phased-in to this standard between 2004 and 2007.


So even if they are at 40x the T2 standard, that's still below the typical vehicle of the 1950s. Keep in mind, they were not constantly running at 40x the standard either. They just went up to 40x that standard at certain points during the monitoring.

Not saying VW (or others TBD) should be cheating. Just saying we should put this in perspective.

Not to mention, diesels are a small fraction of the cars sold in the US and other pollutants are at far lower levels than the typical 1950's car.

The sky is not falling with respect to pollutants. We've done a remarkable job in cleaning up tail pipe emissions. Let's never forget how far we've come.
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour

The sky is not falling with respect to pollutants. We've done a remarkable job in cleaning up tail pipe emissions. Let's never forget how far we've come.


It's kind of like seeing a friend who's been on the wagon for 20 years have a drink. No, it doesn't mean he's a full blown alcoholic again, but you just kind of groan and shake your head at it.
 
The problem that I see is VW intentionally violate the emission laws.

A multi-billions company that produces millions vehicles sold worldwide intentionally by pass the laws to get ahead of competitions is not acceptable.

If diesel engine can't be that clean with that much power and that high MPG, so be it. Intentionally violate the laws is not the way to do business worldwide.

Let say a bank is cheating customers 1 penny per $100 transaction, the cheated amount of 1 penny is absolutely small, does this will absolved the bank from indicted ? Specially if DA found evidence that the bank intentionally cheats their customers.
 
I don't see a need to justify fraud. It's not exactly a catch phrase to say "Hey, our clean diesels are polluting like the 50's. But, only some of the time."
 
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.
 
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I find it incredible that a company with VW's worldwide sales and reputation would actually use software to cheat on emissions tests.
But they did.
There is no excusing this based upon what any given engine might have emitted before either emissions or their hazards were understood.
VW clearly wanted to avoid a costly emissions system on these inexpensive entry-level diesel cars and had to resort to cheating to make them meet standards.
VW will once again be toast in many markets, including this one.
 
Originally Posted By: bakechad
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.

They all lie about something. The ones you mention just got caught.
 
Originally Posted By: bakechad
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.



So....if Honda or Subaru got caught with an intentional cheat, would you also give up the cars you currently drive?
I got a horse I'll sell ya.....
 
What fault was ever found with Toyota? But you do agree with a government shakedown I'm sure, Chicago and all.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
I am sad VW was ratted out.



Me too...My hats off to them..Stickin it to the Man! Very creative idea and too bad they caught caught.

Everyone here is against all the CAFE [censored] but now they all hate VW...Total hipocracy!
 
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: CT8
I am sad VW was ratted out.



Me too...My hats off to them..Stickin it to the Man! Very creative idea and too bad they caught caught.

Everyone here is against all the CAFE [censored] but now they all hate VW...Total hipocracy!


Not Everyone.
 
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Me too...My hats off to them..Stickin it to the Man! Very creative idea and too bad they caught caught.

Yes.
wink.gif
I heard it already today, how "no one" would ever buy their stuff again. They have some loyal followers, and I'd still consider a TDI, irrespective of this issue.

"It's only cheating if you get caught," undoubtedly applies in the emissions game.
 
I'll tell you how bad emissions control was when it was just introduced. I worked at a gas station and we had cars come in that were pretty much pre-emissions control, a little '50s stuff and a fair amount of '60s stuff.

Under certain conditions, if somebody left their car running and you started feeling a little light headed - that was "rich". If they left their car running and your eyes started burning - that was "lean".
 
Originally Posted By: bakechad
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.

GM as well many many death traps as well.
 
Originally Posted By: zach1900
What fault was ever found with Toyota? But you do agree with a government shakedown I'm sure, Chicago and all.


It was floor mats.

Toyota later recalled pedals in some vehicles so it makes it seem to people like they lied.

The famous Toyota crashes were due to floor mats, and I don't think the vehicles involved were recalled for the pedal. The Lexus ES for example.

I've seen accelerator pedals get stuck on older carburated vehicles with a throttle cable. Why no shakedowns?
 
There certainly are diminishing returns for these things. We're definitely in that regime now. I despise how in the interest of a fraction of a ppm of NOx, were willing to add tons of CO2 and other junk...
 
Originally Posted By: Rick in PA
I'll tell you how bad emissions control was when it was just introduced. I worked at a gas station and we had cars come in that were pretty much pre-emissions control, a little '50s stuff and a fair amount of '60s stuff.

Under certain conditions, if somebody left their car running and you started feeling a little light headed - that was "rich". If they left their car running and your eyes started burning - that was "lean".
That is when gasoline smelt good and there was the little ball on the gas pump that would spin to show the gas was being pumped.
 
We could talk about big pharma,the military industrial corporations and even the food processing companies.
 
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