Drop unsprung mass, gain serious MPG

While I like the logic and the MPG results, the look isn’t for me. It screams “pull me over” to me. Not a look I’d ever go for.
Nor would I normally, but when you want both smaller wheels *and* inexpensive (i.e. steel) the options are very limited.

That said, it’s growing on me and I’ve come to like it a bit. Yes, it’s a bit cop car look, but meh, I don’t have to look at it while I drive so I don’t care.
 
Nor would I normally, but when you want both smaller wheels *and* inexpensive (i.e. steel) the options are very limited.

That said, it’s growing on me and I’ve come to like it a bit. Yes, it’s a bit cop car look, but meh, I don’t have to look at it while I drive so I don’t care.
Hubcaps? 😉
 
It is in the sense that all energy loss of motion is “friction.” But specifically it is the friction of the rubber deflecting within itself, analogous to shear friction in a fluid.

Okay I have to be honest. The difference in rolling resistance is going to depend on tire construction rather than size. Think of RR as the degree of flex at the sidewall before the tire begins to rotate. An extreme example would be slow motion video of a drag car where you'll often see the twisting of the sidewall at the hub. Basically low RR tires have comparatively stiffer sidewalls. Basically there are more variables at play rather than the reduction in unsprung mass. Example: Changes in aero of the steel rim, changes in aero of the tread pattern, differences in tire construction. I guarantee you have not adjusted for these differences.
 
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When we bought my daughters Mazda Cx-30 I was happy the 'S' model (base) came with 215/65/16 tires as opposed to higher trims which came with 215/55/18's. The cost to replace the tires is much lower and my daughter doesn't drive it in a manner that would make a difference handling wise. Also, the lower profile tires are more prone to damage on New York's terribly maintained, pothole infested roads.
 
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While this is technically true, when all the other variables are constant and have regressed to their respective means, they are essentially controlled. In a regression model, you'd throw those out of your model because the coefficients would be too small.

It's easy to say "muh other variables" when you can't point to WHICH of the other variables. Neither can I, because literally nothing but the wheels and tires have changed. I buy fuel at the same 2-3 places year round, drive in the same weather where I live, and generally have a pretty good feel for how this car behaves after 9 years of ownership and commuter use.

But I'm sure it's possible a total stranger with no experience with this car in this area with my duty cycle using my fuel sources with my driving style has secretly discovered the mysterious X factor variable that explains the observed MPG increase and discredits the attribution of the gains to the only thing that has changed on the car in 3 years.

But I wouldn't take that bet.
If even the EPA for CAFE measures doesn’t attribute changes to a single variable while using multi-million dollar equipment to measure fuel economy, what makes you think it can be done with a pen and paper in an uncontrolled environment? Especially when you can’t even use the odometer for a point of distance traveled? You even admitted as much- the height difference in tire size should be greater than 3%, but you claim rollout is less than 2%. Which one is right? Or are they both wrong? Either way, your calculations are making ASSUMPTIONS all the way around, trying to fill in data where no reliable source exists. How do you account for the energy between summer and winter gas? Air temperature and density? Humidity? The list of impacting factors goes on nearly forever.

If your data held true merit, you can nearly guarantee every vehicle manufacturer would be jettisoning wider tires and also slashing their budgets on all other R&D since you found the holy grail of efficiency improvements.

You may have seen some improvement, sure. But you can’t pin any enumerated % of the gain on tires, just like I can’t pin it on oil.
 
Okay I have to be honest. The difference in rolling resistance is going to depend on tire construction rather than size. Think of RR as the degree of flex at the sidewall before the tire begins to rotate. An extreme example would be slow motion video of a drag car where you'll often see the twisting of the sidewall at the hub. Basically low RR tires have comparatively stiffer sidewalls. Basically there are more variables at play rather than the reduction in unsprung mass. Example: Changes in aero of the steel rim, changes in aero of the tread pattern, differences in tire construction. I guarantee you have not adjusted for these differences.

I'd be curious what difference the OP would see if the same brand/type of tire in the stock size(or something of comparable diameter in a size compatible with the wheel) were mounted on the OEM wheels.

I realize not every tire is available in every size, but 17"+ is now such a common rim diameter even on less expensive cars that there's a lot of selection. In fact I might go out on a limb and say that if you walk into the average tire store, they probably have more options in 17" than any other, and especially in the ~205-255 or so width range and 40-60 series sidewall. That's certainly a change from 20 years ago, where 15" and 16" were the bread and butter tires for passenger cars and 17"+ was mostly a sports and luxury car size(and as an owner of a sports car with 14" wheels, I wish we had more options in that size, especially in the skinny tires the car was designed to use, although the Yokos I ran for a while and the Generals I have now are sometimes jokingly called "minivan tires" but outperform the OEMs, which I can get through specialty suppliers for a nutty price).
 
If even the EPA for CAFE measures doesn’t attribute changes to a single variable while using multi-million dollar equipment to measure fuel economy, what makes you think it can be done with a pen and paper in an uncontrolled environment? Especially when you can’t even use the odometer for a point of distance traveled? You even admitted as much- the height difference in tire size should be greater than 3%, but you claim rollout is less than 2%. Which one is right? Or are they both wrong? Either way, your calculations are making ASSUMPTIONS all the way around, trying to fill in data where no reliable source exists. How do you account for the energy between summer and winter gas? Air temperature and density? Humidity? The list of impacting factors goes on nearly forever.

If your data held true merit, you can nearly guarantee every vehicle manufacturer would be jettisoning wider tires and also slashing their budgets on all other R&D since you found the holy grail of efficiency improvements.

You may have seen some improvement, sure. But you can’t pin any enumerated % of the gain on tires, just like I can’t pin it on oil.
Skinnier, lighter tires always produce better MPG, when controlling for other factors. My own personal experience mirrors this.

Car manufacturers do tend to put skinner tires on base models. Keep in mind they also want their cars to look cool and have certain driving characteristics, so are sometimes incentivized to put on wider tires, especially on higher trims.

Example, base Tacomas come with 235s or 245s. TRD models come with 265s. You bet the base models get better MPG as a result.
 
Skinnier, lighter tires always produce better MPG, when controlling for other factors. My own personal experience mirrors this.

Car manufacturers do tend to put skinner tires on base models. Keep in mind they also want their cars to look cool and have certain driving characteristics, so are sometimes incentivized to put on wider tires, especially on higher trims.

Example, base Tacomas come with 235s or 245s. TRD models come with 265s. You bet the base models get better MPG as a result.
Sure, and I agreed there will be “some” improvement with all other controllable variables remaining equal, but not 3mpg. Also, that gain will not always be the same %, because of the other variables involved. There are even Tacos out there with 235s that will get worse MPG for their entire lifetimes than those with 265s, because of driving conditions and methods.
 
If even the EPA for CAFE measures doesn’t attribute changes to a single variable while using multi-million dollar equipment to measure fuel economy, what makes you think it can be done with a pen and paper in an uncontrolled environment? Especially when you can’t even use the odometer for a point of distance traveled? You even admitted as much- the height difference in tire size should be greater than 3%, but you claim rollout is less than 2%. Which one is right? Or are they both wrong? Either way, your calculations are making ASSUMPTIONS all the way around, trying to fill in data where no reliable source exists. How do you account for the energy between summer and winter gas? Air temperature and density? Humidity? The list of impacting factors goes on nearly forever.

If your data held true merit, you can nearly guarantee every vehicle manufacturer would be jettisoning wider tires and also slashing their budgets on all other R&D since you found the holy grail of efficiency improvements.

You may have seen some improvement, sure. But you can’t pin any enumerated % of the gain on tires, just like I can’t pin it on oil.

I don't pretend to have a full understanding of how CAFE works, but if my limited understanding is correct, among other things the manufacturers are often chasing tenths or hundredths of a point gains, especially in higher volume models. When I first got my MKZ(I doubt a particularly high volume model, especially compared to its platform mate the Fusion), it was still on factory tires. They were Michelin MXM4s, a tire that was a known entity to me I thought, but I was never happy with the ride quality of them. Granted part of it could have been that they were closing in on 8 years old(yes the first thing I did was throw new tires on it, even though there was a decent bit of tread left). Still, though, I had been around this car and driven it occasionally since it was new. My grandfather bought it new, racked up about 15,000 miles, my dad bought it from him in 2014 mostly to keep him from driving it, and I bought it from my dad in 2017 with 25K miles when it was finally time to replace my much-beloved but aging Lincoln LS(what I wouldn't give to have another of those). I'd run MXM4s on the LS(although I bought it post-factory tire, which was also an MXM4) and even with its "sportier" suspension I thought it rode better on them than the MKZ ever did.

When I took the MKZ to a trusted tire shop I dealt with for years, I mentioned that I'd love to put another set of MXM4s if they could ride like the ones I'd had in the past. They pointed out to me the "Energy" and "Low Rolling Resistance" labels on the factory tires, and said they could order a few different versions of that tire and were sure I'd be happy if they ordered the right one. Ultimately, that trip I put Bridgestone Potenzas on, another tire I knew and trusted, mostly because of the buy 3 special were running then on Bridgestones. I have the MXM4s on it now and have been super happy with them, but am shopping for my next set and we'll see where I end up.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the MKZ was supposedly the replacement for the LS, although about the only thing they really have in common is the general size. The MKZ came with a 245/45 and the LS a 235/50, so despite stricter CAFE standards in 2010 as compared to 2004 they actually widened the tire, although of course the FWD V6 MKZ is a whole different beast in gas mileage than the RWD V8 LS.

My MG was well before CAFE standards, of course, but it's a place for me to make an interesting observation. In 1970, the car shipped with a 165HR14, which is 165/82R14 in modern terms. At some point earlier in production, the width was 155. That size is basically unavailable now, short of specialty suppliers. Lucas Classic Tire at least use to sell a Pirelli 165HR15 essentially identical to what would have been on the car new. For a while I ran 185/70s since that's an easy size to find and is about the closest to the original in diameter, although now I have 175/75s. I've driven other MGs on 165HR14 Vredestain Sprints(I'd consider those, and they are a little easier to find and a little less expensive than the Pirelli), quite a few on 175 and 185s and a couple on 195s. One of the things I've noticed was that steering effort definitely increases on wider tires(no power steering on these) and overall the skinnier tires just make the car feel a lot more "lively." I did once drive a GT I was seriously considering purchasing that somehow or another had ended up on 215s. That's way too wide of a tire for the RoStyle steel wheels they were on, and they actually did visibly "balloon" on the tread. Aside from scrubbing in sharp turns, it was almost scary to drive, and the steering was so light that if you had driven other MGBs, you'd have been forgiven for thinking it had power steering somehow or another. If I had bought it, I'd have driven it directly to the tire shop...

My point in all of this-I think of the IS250 as being a sports sedan, although maybe that classification is mistaken. The OP has already noted decreased steering effort on the skinnier tires, and I suspect many buyers might have appreciated how a high end skinnier tire would have handled on the car. If it could have made the car more fun to drive and given a fuel economy boost, it seems they would have considered it both an engineering and sales/marketing win-win and would have done it.
 
Sure, and I agreed there will be “some” improvement with all other controllable variables remaining equal, but not 3mpg. Also, that gain will not always be the same %, because of the other variables involved. There are even Tacos out there with 235s that will get worse MPG for their entire lifetimes than those with 265s, because of driving conditions and methods.
3 mpg is almost meaningless as a yardstick of judgement because mpg is a horrible measurement due to its nonlinearity.

If he was getting, say, 18 and went to 21, that’s a 17% improvement.

If he was getting 25 and went to 28, that’s a 12% improvement.

Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, the lighter weight, skinnier tire, and lower rolling resistance are all likely the major contributing factors. Which one is largest is hard to determine, but I don’t think a 10%+ MPG gain is out of the question here.
 
I think you are correct in that you can observe any change in fuel economy averaged over a number of miles and tanks of fuel.
If you have a year of data on the old tires and accumulate a year on the new ones I think you can draw a valid conclusion wrt any change in fuel economy.
 
Something literally NO ONE has mentioned is the improvement on snow/winter handling performance-the narrower tires would be orders of magnitude better than the wide ones. One question I have is why all the comments about “not wide enough for an IS250”? Did the little Acuras get a lot heavier when I wasn’t looking??
 
In any test with a high number of uncontrolled variables (such as this one) the longer the test runs the worse it can get since the variability becomes increasingly significant.
 
Y'all are truly something... So hostile!!!

A guy shares his observation based on long term use of one product VS another product. And y'all are instantly throwing big words around to discredit any of his observations and results.

I don't see anyone claiming for these observations to be the ultimate discovery that all carmakers should adapt to! And a simple hack like that isn't required to have a paper trail of R&D behind it, with "controlled environment" and all the "variables".

Go boast about your "too many variables" on another "controlled environment" nerd forum.

Let's keep BITOG a simple place for automotive enthusiasts to learn and socialize, without being chewed up.
It's almost like some of y'all are specifically snooping on random threads, just looking for something to discredit on daily basis. 😂

Ease up fellas. And quit claiming for "controlled environments" from us, regular folks who clearly don't possess the R&D budgets of huge companies. Doing so make y'all come off as... ...nah, I shouldn't type that word. But you get it. Hopefully.
 
Y'all are truly something... So hostile!!!

A guy shares his observation based on long term use of one product VS another product. And y'all are instantly throwing big words around to discredit any of his observations and results.

I don't see anyone claiming for these observations to be the ultimate discovery that all carmakers should adapt to! And a simple hack like that isn't required to have a paper trail of R&D behind it, with "controlled environment" and all the "variables".

Go boast about your "too many variables" on another "controlled environment" nerd forum.

Let's keep BITOG a simple place for automotive enthusiasts to learn and socialize, without being chewed up.
It's almost like some of y'all are specifically snooping on random threads, just looking for something to discredit on daily basis. 😂

Ease up fellas. And quit claiming for "controlled environments" from us, regular folks who clearly don't possess the R&D budgets of huge companies. Doing so make y'all come off as... ...nah, I shouldn't type that word. But you get it. Hopefully.
Yeah let me tell you about the time when I got a 0.9 mpg improvement when I changed my power steering fluid.
 
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