Does Redline kill trannies?

[Jon Dalton]

Hello. I put Redline MT-90 in my transmission 1.5 years ago with great initial results, but the transmission has become much worse in the 50,000 km since I changed it.

I put it in in the winter and it made the synchro performance and cold shifting much better. In the summer that followed, the synchro performance got alot worse and it became hard to shift into 1st while stopped. Now, another year later, I've lost first gear and 4th is shaky, and the input shaft bearing makes an awful noise.

The car is a Toyota Tercel 4WD, which calls for 75 or 80W90 gear oil and shares it with the front diff. The mileage is low for the type of car, now only 220,000 km. My last Tercel 4WD had over 320,000, and the transmission was fine until the 2nd gear synchro went bad after 300,000.

Now I have a new transmission with under 20,000 miles on it in my garage, and I need to decide what to fill it with. I want good shifting in this trans that is known to have poor synchromesh, but not if the compromise is premature failure. I can live with changing syncrhos as they're brass and not even that expensive, and would rather do that than wear out the hardened steel gears and bearings.

 

[Hasbeen]

I put Redline MT-90 in my Ramger 4X4 5 Speed, (Iknow it is suppose to have ATF) just to see how it would work. It was fine and felt fine at 50,000 on the oil, 75,000 on transmision. I desided to check it and drained it all out, Very dirty, was clear when it went in, and was almost black when it came out, More shiney stuff than I would have liked to see. So much for leaving gearube in for the life of the vehicle. I refilled it with Amsoil GL-4. Shifts better, and seems fine.

I`m a bit of a rebel and I feel that ATF Belongs in Automatic transmissions and that because the Synthetic lube is thinner than conventional gear lubes, it will be fine. Went through one winter and it was OK at temps down to around 20 degrees.

 

[TallPaul]

I can't see any reason the Redline should hurt the tranny so long as it was the right specification for the tranny, particularly viscosity. Hard to separate whether the fluid contributed or the tranny went for some other reason, which they sometimes do. I will keep running Redline in my trannies, both manual and auto, and rear ends.

 

[moribundman]

My Audi Quattro likes MT-90 in the tranny and torsen.

 

[newtoncd8]

On Honda manual trannies, there are reports on the Honda newsgroup about Redline MTL not working well with the Honda synchro's. Most of the guys recommend Honda MTL. I ran Redline MTL in my Integra up until I traded it in with 90,000 miles and the shifting was excellent; so go figure.

 

[MolaKule]

Another forensic point is that the MT90 may have masked prexisting problems, such as possibly delaying ouright bearing failure or synchro wear.

If in doubt, try Amsoil 2000 or one of the Royal Purple products.

 

[gmttr1]

I am sure you have heard of all the havoc that Redline's fluids caused in the Getrag transmissions found in Toyota Supras and in some other brands. A lot of those trannies failed in extremely short order once the Redline funk was installed. This was all in the face of Redline enthusiastically "recommending" their product be used in these Getrags.

In my particular case, I was trying to locate a suitable alternative for a very expensive lifetime ATF for a BMW and Redline enthusiastically recommended their ATF as not only "compatible" but also meeting all the same specs etc as the ESSO 71141 fluid that is the factory fill. Upon detailed probing, "Dave", who appears to be the whole "technical department" at Redline clearly admitted that they had not run the fluid through any of the foaming (S1, S2 and S3) and gear function tests (FZG). I was shocked to hear that they were issuing their baseless recommendations with gay abandon with absolutely no tests or data to corroborate the "recommendations".

I was perplexed enough that I researched this issue further, only to find out that this is indeed standard operating procedure for Redline. I have now come to the conclusion that Redline is indeed a shady, backyard operation that has virtually no technical R&D. They just get synthetic base stocks from a big manufacturer (such as Mobil etc), throw in some additives and/or stabilizers (also procured from other vendors) and then pretend that they have a panacea to all of the world's automotive ills.

If it were my car, I would stay far far away from this unscrupulous vendor. By all means, their particular product might work out allright for you but it won't be because that company did any research or complied with any manufacturer's specifications etc. They do use a good-quality synthetic basestock and you basically could get lucky!!

 

[mechtech]

gmttr1 - What trans fluid are you using? [No agenda, just curious!}

 

[MolaKule]

gmttr1,

I had heard about the Gertrag failure, but had not attributed said failure to Redline.

Do you have any Gertrag links or technical data that shows it was Redline.

I have found Redline to be a reputable company with a good technical staff.

 

[tdi-rick]

MolaKule, my post at the bottom of the page with a link to a reference site http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001340;p=1#000006

very interested in your opinion.

Rick.

 

[gmttr1]

Molakule:
Rick has posted one link.

As per my research, Supra forum members discovered that the internal shifting mechanism will quickly malfunction if Red Line MTL was used. NOBODY uses it anymore in the Supra. To the point that if you call Redline today to ask if you should use it in the Supra or for any related Getrag transmissions, you would be very tactfully told no. You won't be told that this would lead to failure!! Of course, how could they when they recommended it so enthusiastically before the failures became so well-known.

Personally, I think Toyota and others left Redline alone with just a cease-and-desist simply because Redline is too small of a fish for them to bother with. Also, the Japanese are very litigation-averse in general. I personally thing they owed it to their customers to have pursued Redline really hard and put this sorry excuse of a company out of business.

Can you feel my bitterness? Just a few days back, I held a totally different opinion of Redline and was seriously thinking about using their product.

BTW, I have personally concluded that the risks are just too humungous to use anything other than the ESSO fluid in a BMW tranny that calls for it. There have been no known failures from people using Mobil1, Pennzoil or even Redline D4, but after extensive research on the matter, I have decided to use nothing other than the approved fluid. The fluid can be obtained at a "reasonable" $12/liter from ZF distributors directly.

BTW, I am also looking for someone in Pittsburgh to share the ESSO fluid with me. I'll be ordering sometime soon and if we can get enough people, we will definitely save on shipping and can possibly ask for a little discount.

 

[MolaKule]

TDI-rick, I read the link, thanks.

I am with you rick, how could a bushing "grow" that is made of a steel or aluminum metal backing with a friction reducing inner surface of PTFE/lead and sintered broze? Even if there is a spring inside (made of spring steel most likely) the inner lining of the DU bushing simply acts as a solid lubricant for the spring in case the oil film is unavailable or too thin. I.E, the inner coating is simply a backup for the spring.

The explanation leaves more questions unanswered than it purports to answer.

I am not convinced this is a fluid related problem.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

To the point that if you call Redline today to ask if you should use it in the Supra or for any related Getrag transmissions, you would be very tactfully told no.

---

Even if one problem showed up, and even if it was not fluid related, the company would be legally smart to not recommend their fluid for fear of future litigation. I don't see how a company could test their fluids in all transmissions. Fluid recommendations are usually made on the basis of level of EP and FM additives, seal compatibility, and viscosity requirements.

I have no abiding interest in Redline. But when I see an explanation which uses hand waving and general statements, I get "tribo-chemically" suspicious.

If you have read my earlier posts, you would know that I do not generally recommend ATF for manuals. I would use a Synchromesh-type fluid or something similar for a tranny that required a light fluid.

 

[gmttr1]

Molakule:
Yes I have seen you previous posts and most definitely respect your opinion.

Actually, during my search on related material for the last few days, I turned up with several accounts (posts) from people who had their Getrag trannies blow up VERY soon after putting in the Redline. I think there was enough empirical data to establish a causal relationship in reasonable minds.

And BTW, the above-mentioned Getrag has been one of the most solid manual trannies every developed so we know they didn't really "wear-out" at the low mileages that they failed at.

While ideally, a company ought to exhaustively test its fluid in ALL trannies that they recommend the fluid for. I don't even think this is even a big deal for any major lubricants company. However, the fact that they didn't test their fluid in the various trannies isn't my beef with Redline. My beef stems from the fact that neither Toyota nor Getrag apparently published the specs for the FM package for their proprietary fluid so Redline would have had no way of knowing whether their fluid met the same specs or not. The only way they could have established that they met the spec was to have tested the fluid in the tranny and it appears to be certain bet that they didn't. Yet, they were merrily "recommending" the fluid with "no reservations". I ask, recommending based on WHAT?

My personal exchange with Redline also elicited the same BS "enthusiastic recommendations" that have been talked about on various forums. As I said, this appears to be SOP (Standard Operqating Procedure) for Redline and that is what I want to bring to light.

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gmttr1:
.... My beef stems from the fact that neither Toyota nor Getrag apparently published the specs for the FM package for their proprietary fluid so Redline would have had no way of knowing whether their fluid met the same specs or not. ....

---

Failure to publish specifications is becoming more and more common. Chrysler failed to provide specifications for its +4 ATF, didn't offer any licensing program, tied its OEM suppliers to agreements not to reveal the additive package, and otherwise locked independents out of the market.

As to your tranmission, do you know if they were speaking of a component made of composite or other non-metallic material? Bushings, oilite bearings, and the like don't shrink or swell.

 

[wrangler]

gmttr1,

Redline is not the only company that recommends their products without doing any testing.

Amsoil and I am sure many other make the same blind recommendations about their products. When I called Amsoil about the tranny fluid I should be using(NV3550) I was told their S2K 0W30 motor oil or their S3K 5W30 motor oil. Now I know they have not tested either of these MOTOR oils in any tranny. How can they recommend frictionally modified motor oil (S2K) for a manual tranny? I’m not saying it won’t work well but that is something that they should test first before recommending. Just because it meets the right viscosity requirements they recommend it...

 

[mikeyoilnutt]

Boy this manual trans. fluid stuff is hard to keep track of. Does anyone know if people who have used Redline and had tranny failures gone after Redline legally to pay for repairs? mikeyoilnutt

 

[TallPaul]

quote:

---

Originally posted by gmttr1:
Every 60c brand of the cheapest, house-brand oil on the retail shelves has at least a API certification ...

---

I think a lot of the off brand cheap oils are just major oil company bottom of the line oils with different labels affixed or are made by a company that specializes in making cheap oil for several labels. So the cost of API cert of one oil forumla may spread across half a dozen or more "house" brands and other off brand oils.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

My beef stems from the fact that neither Toyota nor Getrag apparently published the specs for the FM package for their proprietary fluid so Redline would have had no way of knowing whether their fluid met the same specs or not. The only way they could have established that they met the spec was to have tested the fluid in the tranny and it appears to be certain bet that they didn't. Yet, they were merrily "recommending" the fluid with "no reservations". I ask, recommending based on WHAT?

My personal exchange with Redline also elicited the same BS "enthusiastic recommendations" that have been talked about on various forums. As I said, this appears to be SOP (Standard Operqating Procedure) for Redline and that is what I want to bring to light.

---

So how is it Redline's fault if the formulation was not released? One can reverse engineer and get close, but never really duplicate the exact fluid.

quote:

---

I am with you rick, how could a bushing "grow" that is made of a steel or aluminum metal backing with a friction reducing inner surface of PTFE/lead and sintered broze? Even if there is a spring inside (made of spring steel most likely) the inner lining of the DU bushing simply acts as a solid lubricant for the spring in case the oil film is unavailable or too thin. I.E, the inner coating is simply a backup for the spring.

The explanation leaves more questions unanswered than it purports to answer.

I am not convinced this is a fluid related problem.

---

quote:

---

Fluid recommendations are usually made on the basis of level of EP and FM additives, seal compatibility, and viscosity requirements.

---

OK. Let's get away from generalities and get more specific. Who in fact had a Gertrag blow up that can be pointed specifically to fluid issues.

quote:

---

BTW, have you every asked Redline as to why their lubes do not have industry-standard certification whatsoever (API, ACEA etc). They will give you the most idiotic answer imaginable. That it would unnecessarily add a "lot of cost" to the customer, blah blah blah. I say, complete horse-manure!! Every 60c brand of the cheapest, house-brand oil on the retail shelves has at least a API certification, so it clearly could not be costing the manufacturer more than a cent or two per quart (and even at 1-2 cent, I think I am hugely overestimating the cost).

---

Other discussions have made light of the fact that API is a minimal standard. This is off topic.

We were talking about Gertrag transmission failures and attempting to get to the bottom of the actual cause. TDI-Rick's stuff was a good starting point.

Let's see if we can get away from this p....g contest and nail this down technically.

[ September 24, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Terry]

Transmission blowing up? Only Getrag problems I have seen are in higher mileage Dodge/Cummins applications where the fluid was run low for thousands of miles.And that was using the spec Castrol fluid in most of the applications.

Is it possible that the design or capability of the trans to handle the Toyota setup is the issue, not the lubricant.

For those of you that praise XOM and any other of the industry heavy weights remember that cutting edge lubricant technology may be developed by them but it usually takes a company like Amsoil,Dyson Oil now Synergyn, Redline, and many who no longer exist to push them to market.

Redline is a honest outfit from what I can see. Disclaimer:I have no interest financial or otherwise in seeing them do well.

Their products save weak components not damage them from the analysis I see.