Does "frozen" = "solid"?

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Originally Posted By: Donald
Zero degrees Kelvin is absolute zero, at which all atomic motion comes to a standstill. All the energy has been extracted.

The closest they have come so far in experiments is .45 nanokelvin or 1/2 of a billionth of a degree above 0 Kelvin.

Its -273 C


Finally I'm glad someone put up a good response.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Gabe
The freezing point should always be the same as the melting points. So, ice might be melting in a room, but the steel chair is not melting. The chair is frozen; the water isn't frozen.

I disagree that all solids are frozen.


What is your basis for this argument? It's pretty cut and dry, from a thermodynamics and material properties standpoint. If a material is solid, it has frozen. When steel is cooled from it's melting temp of >2,500F, it freezes, which is to say that most of its molecules begin to slow down to the point where the individual grains align in some sort of uniform structure, or lattice.


This.

Different materials have different melting/frozen temp. i.e. aluminum at 1220F, iron 3000F, ice 32F.

Like said before, lots of metal have frozen at room temp unlike water. This isn’t applicable to rock or wood because they do not have liquid form.
 
Originally Posted By: AccordV6MN
This isn’t applicable to rock or wood because they do not have liquid form.

Wouldn't magma or lava be considered rock's liquid form?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: AccordV6MN
This isn’t applicable to rock or wood because they do not have liquid form.

Wouldn't magma or lava be considered rock's liquid form?


If I remember correctly from science magma like glass is a plastic.
 
Every element has a melting point (temperature at which the phase transition from solid to liquid happens) and a boiling point (temperature at which the phase transition from liquid to gas happens)...though, for, say, Hydrogen, the solid state phase transition happens at a pretty low temperature...this is true for most compounds (two or more elements combines) but becomes meaningless for mixtures (which will transition according to each component of the mixture), and for some substances which do not have the phases, like, well, wood...

This discussion is semantic, not scientific, and centers on the meaning of the word "Frozen"...if frozen is interpreted to mean the solid phase of an element...and the object is made of one element, OK, then it's frozen...but where the object is not subject to simple phase transitions (like wood, which is a complex organic structure, or glass, which has a very complex set of thermodynamic variable changes at its phase transitions, rendering the definition of phase transition useless) then the word "Frozen" is, simply, meaningless.
 
Originally Posted By: stockrex
Glass is a liquid??


Actually, yes it is. Also, you will that old window panes are distorted because of the glass "flowing."
 
Originally Posted By: Boatowner
Originally Posted By: stockrex
Glass is a liquid??


Actually, yes it is. Also, you will that old window panes are distorted because of the glass "flowing."


Yes, and no.

It turns out that it has many of the thermodynamic properties of a liquid...but it's an oversimplification to say that glass is a liquid..

However, the window panes are actually thicker at the bottom because of manufacturing processes, not flow, the flow has been estimated to take about 10 to the 32nd years (many times the age of the universe...).
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: AccordV6MN
This isn’t applicable to rock or wood because they do not have liquid form.

Wouldn't magma or lava be considered rock's liquid form?


If I remember correctly from science magma like glass is a plastic.


There are 4 states of matter, solid, liquid, gas and plasma. Plastic is not one of them.
 
There's some areas that are pretty "rubbery", "rubbery" not being a state in and of itself.

A lot of "plastics", like pencil erasers are high viscosity elastomers.

The range in stress/strain in an obviously solid piece of steel after the elastic zone is referred to as "plastic", as the stress/strain curve is non linear, and non reversable...is it another state, is it liquid...neither, it's still a solid, with disociations releasing and stacking up.

High temperature creep in materials mean that things that are solid change shape, even under a constant load and temperature...theoretically, could fill a bottle under appropriate forces at temperature...still a solid or a fluid ?...blurs the line a little into the pitch liquid experiment.
 
One more thing:
Water is unusual. It expands and contracts when in a liquid form.
but not linear. It contracts, then expands as it gets colder [near freezing].
Also it has the property of sublimation [sublime], and it can go directly from solid to gas. This is why ice in cube trays disappears when left in the freezer. Also why snow drifts and ice diminish when the temp is still well below freezing.
 
Originally Posted By: abycat
Nope he is wrong. Somethings cant be frozen like a rock or a metal structure. Im pretty sure as well that frozen means the molecules in the object are slowed down so slow that the object is solidified. Say for instance lava is liquidish when hot but when room temp it is a solid. It cant get much more solid than that so freezing could not make the molecules any slower.

Water is a good one. at room temp its a liquid but at over 100 degrees the molecules are ripping around and steam is created. Or better said energy is applied to the water and steam is the outcome.

When frozen the molecules slow right down and the energy that was given to do that turns the water into ice.

So a metal cabinet is not a liquid but is a solid. so cold cant make the molecules any slower. but it does have a melting point and it can be turned into a liquid. A much greater energy source will be needed then say water but it does happen every day.

The only thing i dont know is what is in the object to give it a melting point or freeze point. Maybe it has to have a moisture or liquid content to begin with.

I guess a composition like from a man made item like a plastic tarp must be very different to provide outcomes like plastic melting. It must have no moisture in it but it melts. But wood has some moisture depending on how fresh it is and it doesnt melt at all. Theres a big technicality somewhere but your cabinet will not freeze and rocks will not either.



Lol dude, freezing means the point at which something becomes a solid, not 0C.
 
Originally Posted By: joaks
No discussion on sublimation?


Yeah, CO2 is one of the weird ones. It can go from a solid directly to a gas. Simply compress a tank of "dry ice" and it will go back to a liquid again.

We make liquid hydrogen at work too. Pretty close to absolute zero. About the only thing that won't freeze solid in the process is helium.

Joel
 
Originally Posted By: JTK
Originally Posted By: joaks
No discussion on sublimation?


Yeah, CO2 is one of the weird ones. It can go from a solid directly to a gas. Simply compress a tank of "dry ice" and it will go back to a liquid again.

We make liquid hydrogen at work too. Pretty close to absolute zero. About the only thing that won't freeze solid in the process is helium.

Joel


Snow sublimates, too.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
When talking about materials like water, metal, and rocks, the definition of feezing is easy because the material forms a definite crystal structure from liquid.

Other materials can fall into a gray area, such as glass (already pointed out that it's a liquid at room temperature), and maybe jello, whipped cream, grease, and plastics. Or to be more scientific, materials that have long (or short) carbon chains that intertwine imperfectly. For those material we graph viscosity versus temperature and denote a logical point called the "glass transition temperature", which is the equivalent to crystalline freezing.


Like this...
 
Originally Posted By: JTK
Originally Posted By: joaks
No discussion on sublimation?


Yeah, CO2 is one of the weird ones. It can go from a solid directly to a gas. Simply compress a tank of "dry ice" and it will go back to a liquid again.

We make liquid hydrogen at work too. Pretty close to absolute zero. About the only thing that won't freeze solid in the process is helium.

Joel


So innocent. There are a poopton of elements and compounds that sublimate. Arsenic. Naphthalene. More...
 
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